Science vs. Religion

[UnbornTao]

18 hours ago, z3rolight said:

@UnbornTaoYes!... I understood what purpose this platform is built for and on what basis!. If the moderators jump on you with twisted questions supporting only their opinion, their truth.... Without taking into account the freedom of expression of man!. When there are rules for expression and the opinion of man is restricted. The basis is conspiracy - disinformation and supporting the principles of their rules!. In short, a tabloid of distorting the truth and its influences. Where there is no freedom of expression.?. THE TABLOID - IS THE INFLUENCE OF THE MASS with well-founded goals.

Sorry if it came out as a personal attack. In any case, it's true -- our culturally-shared obsession with ourselves doesn't help.

[Sabth]

When religion is forced on you , you have no choice but to create the sun and the stars and the rain (I am only conscious of the last not the other first two it was human made .) and I would have guessed that everything else in the existence is created by such force.  

*

It must be in the past happened like that too. 

 

 

....

*I actually felt very low. You should be able to feel the grandiosity of the sun but i felt low. 

When you look/learned about it for the first time and never been abused up to your age (81years old) and died like that maybe you could keep seeing that grandiosity until you died. You could keep that magic /that image in your mind forever. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited Friday at 02:39 AM by Sabth

[integral]

On 2025-02-05 at 3:10 PM, z3rolight said:

@integral--- /Forgive me if I offended you!. I do not support religion, science, esotericism, the concepts and morals of society. I am in alignment and totally agree with everything that exists. I am not against any system; I am even happy with all the currents that have existed so far and that exist! I believe that; from all of them I have discovered something to reach an understanding and a liberation of self. I am not writing here to show off or to gain something!. (I have nothing to gain, maybe to waste time?). I am just sharing some knowledge. I am offering this information for free. Because what you have acquired over time through years of searching... The questions also flowed to me, what is and what role does life have?!. I wanted to share with my fellow men the joy of living!. If you think that I should retire. I do it with joy. If not, I will also gladly leave you. I do not force and I do not want to lead anyone into errors!. I am sincere in what I have written so far and everything I have written. I wrote from the heart without any purpose. Thank you for understanding.

I was not offended Or trying to be offensive, if you notice the message that I wrote was not directed towards you, was direct directed towards the creator of this topic.

Also, I’m just talking about ideas and this has nothing to do with anything personal

Edited Friday at 02:15 AM by integral

[Someone here]

On 05/02/2025 at 4:12 AM, UnbornTao said:

@Someone here But what are perception and meaning?

This is about insight rather than conjecture, preference, consensus, and so forth. Intellect, feeling and intuition aren't the only tools available, despite our cultural presumption that they are; direct apprehension is possible, which is why I brought up the historical antecedent. Oversimplified, the absolute is like a sheet of paper, while the content of the sheet is the relative. Everything is absolute, including the relative, and what allows for the existence and recognition of the relative as distinct, is that it has a particular form -- whatever’s painted on the sheet is some form, that is, it exists relative to what it is not. Don't take this too seriously, though -- it's an analogy.

As a meditation, take a small object in your vicinity and ask yourself: What is it, independent of me? What is there as a presence?

We operate on the assumption that what we perceive is an accurate reflection of what’s there and generally don’t move past that. However, this might not be the case. In fact, to tackle the question of meaning, where is it found? In your relationship with and experience of things, hence, in your mind. A tree exists. Asking what the tree means does not make sense in itself. What exactly are we asking by that?

The question of what something means applies whenever value and use are attributed to the object, in relation to one’s self and agenda. As itself, an object just is. A tree doesn't seem to despair over the meaning of its life. It is "tree-ing", and that is it. Without the act of generating meaning, it isn’t found anywhere! Relative to itself, the question of what the object means is nonsensical, superficial. It could be said that it exists, hence its meaning is that it is. I suspect you'll hear that as a negative, yet that would still be operating from within the meaning framework. It doesn't mean anything that it doesn't mean anything. You are free from meaning, and can also create it.

Now, fuck my assertions and anyone else’s. What is the case here?

Perception is direct experience via the senses .

Meaning is a concept that is relative . Because you are basically asking what is the meaning of meaning ? And of course this will create a circularity problem.  In the absolute sense meaning is meaningless or projected into the world.  But I'm at lost as to where does this endless nitpicking and questioning every single assumption (which are just baked into language) is going to lead ?

Yes I agree that the absolute is like a blank canvas and whats drawn are relative but then you said the absolute and the relative are identical In the ultimate analysis because reality is ultimately one whole and indivisible.  So ..how does this connect to op?

Yes a tree doesn't mean anything and all that.  Once again  you are being an epistemological nihilist . Deconstructing every notion as an uninherent assumption...yet ironically talking about direct knowing which you didn't define yet .

[Someone here]

On 05/02/2025 at 5:55 AM, Atb210201 said:

Does it have bad side effects?

Sure . Religion also have bad side effects. Haven't you heard of Islamic terrorism?  Every single Christmas we hear about some Muslim terrorist blowing himself and killing a bunch of people In Europe ..and we've got stuff like ISIS and Al-Qaida etc . And don't tell me these things have nothing to do with Islam because its literally written in quran to fight the unbelievers. 

So..heroin can kill people and it feels good . Islam can kill people and it also feel good to pray or recite Qur’an etc.

So what's the deal here ? Just because something makes me happy doesn't mean it's good from all possible angles ..perspectives..or point of view .

[Someone here]

On 05/02/2025 at 10:24 PM, integral said:

The real mindfuck is when you try to disprove religion without science.

Completely delete everything you ever learn of science from your mind. Then construct a perspective that is higher than religion without science as a crutch. 

And why should I disprove religion without appealing to science?  I can tell you try to disprove Santa Claus without using empiricism (basically scientific method ). You are using the scientific method in your daily life whether you like it or not. It's like asking what time it is now without looking at the clock .

My main questions once again ..People are religious in this era because of one  reason ..and that reason is that religion gives you a set or a bedrock of existential beliefs to comfort your existential questions and anxiety.  But expect without evidence. Science tries to discover from scratch. And science contradicts religion. Therefore the situation is we have to choose between mythical answers which have no proof or uncompleted answers in the meantime .

[Someone here]

23 hours ago, Sabth said:

When religion is forced on you , you have no choice but to create the sun and the stars and the rain (I am only conscious of the last not the other first two it was human made .) and I would have guessed that everything else in the existence is created by such force.  

*

It must be in the past happened like that too. 

 

 

....

*I actually felt very low. You should be able to feel the grandiosity of the sun but i felt low. 

When you look/learned about it for the first time and never been abused up to your age (81years old) and died like that maybe you could keep seeing that grandiosity until you died. You could keep that magic /that image in your mind forever. 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry what's the point you're making ? I didn't understand. 

[z3rolight]

@Sabth     Yes! We are a POINT... in this universe (and we want to make the change, do we want to discover the theory of relativity when it exists before us?)... The feeling... that we are A POINT in this universe. This impression... this is what nature and the universe give you!!! . A feeling of humbly to everything that exists!. You somehow get closer to the absolute... when you understand this!?. Giving up any kind of search.... Everything around you let happen in its natural way without interfering to disturb the harmony that is happening in front of you like a spectator to life. We are just spectators. When you watch, nature and understand its natural physical and natural process!.... You come to understand that life follows its natural course!....ONLY WE, AS A SPECIES... WE OPPOSED TO NATURE... THE FLOW OF LIFE~superlative, OF NATURE!.That's why I said it before when I wrote here!. The best dictionary of existence is the nature that surrounds you!...We are too small to debate the laws of the universe. "Quantum" physics... science, philosophers, religions, concepts, perceptions of people; all these are discoveries, after all, they are still invented by people. Rules of meaningless perceptions! (do we feel like the navel of the earth, the creators of this universe?). Each individual is unique, each has a perspective and perception that they acquire over time about life!. Nothing wrong!. Everything that happens, happens... We created, each of us participated as an individual in the resistance to nature. We produce disharmony. We all doubt it!.. Do we doubt the creation, the creator and life!?. Instead of living life to the superlative. Believe in everything that exists! It exists for you to be grateful to the creator for what he gave you as a gift!. I ... you ... he / she ... we are all .... actors. On a stage created
and directed by God. We are only observers.

 

 

Edited Saturday at 11:54 AM by z3rolight

[Atb210201]

8 hours ago, Someone here said:

Sure . Religion also have bad side effects. Haven't you heard of Islamic terrorism?  Every single Christmas we hear about some Muslim terrorist blowing himself and killing a bunch of people In Europe ..and we've got stuff like ISIS and Al-Qaida etc . And don't tell me these things have nothing to do with Islam because its literally written in quran to fight the unbelievers. 

So..heroin can kill people and it feels good . Islam can kill people and it also feel good to pray or recite Qur’an etc.

So what's the deal here ? Just because something makes me happy doesn't mean it's good from all possible angles ..perspectives..or point of view .

Sure but are you a terrorist?

If you're not a terrorist I don't see why you can't let yourself be happy with it.

[UnbornTao]

On 2/8/2025 at 1:22 AM, Someone here said:

Perception is direct experience via the senses .

Process is itself indirect. Perception is done via the senses, as you say. It is composed of steps and is carried out over a period of time, whether lightning-fast or slow. Perhaps it'd be better to call what you're alluding to "personal experience."

As a perception, it would be completely meaningless in itself (sensory input) without the activities of interpretation and cognition, which determine how one will relate to the "thing" perceived and what it means to oneself -- whether one finds it appealing or threatening, resists it or embraces it, and so on. 

Quote

Meaning is a concept that is relative . Because you are basically asking what is the meaning of meaning ? And of course this will create a circularity problem.  In the absolute sense meaning is meaningless or projected into the world.  But I'm at lost as to where does this endless nitpicking and questioning every single assumption (which are just baked into language) is going to lead ?

What you said regarding language and assumptions, maybe. We'd also have to look into those.

"What is it?" In this case, it would lead to comprehending what meaning is, whatever that turns out to be.

To be clear, none of this suggests that you stop doing functional and healthy stuff! That is a different matter.

Quote

Yes I agree that the absolute is like a blank canvas and whats drawn are relative but then you said the absolute and the relative are identical In the ultimate analysis because reality is ultimately one whole and indivisible.  So ..how does this connect to op?

Yes a tree doesn't mean anything and all that.  Once again  you are being an epistemological nihilist . Deconstructing every notion as an uninherent assumption...yet ironically talking about direct knowing which you didn't define yet .

That was just a rhetorical device. "Figuring out" this absolute/relative subject isn't going to cut it; it is a matter of "enlightenment." So, that's the goal.

What do you mean by "Deconstructing every notion as an uninherent assumption"?

Again, the work needs to be done, not just safely thought about from a distance. Extrapolating and repeating what one has heard or believes in is not the same as personally investigating things. You still consider meaninglessness to be depressive and negative, and so seem to react defensively when that is brought up. Yet this is a function of what you presume it has to imply, not of (comprehending) what it is. 

Regarding this direct experience/absolute consciousness business: Mu. You can actually get it yourself, just remember to come back and tell us once you do.  

Edited yesterday at 01:50 AM by UnbornTao

[integral]

9 hours ago, Someone here said:

And why should I disprove religion without appealing to science?  I can tell you try to disprove Santa Claus without using empiricism (basically scientific method ). You are using the scientific method in your daily life whether you like it or not. It's like asking what time it is now without looking at the clock .

My main questions once again ..People are religious in this era because of one  reason ..and that reason is that religion gives you a set or a bedrock of existential beliefs to comfort your existential questions and anxiety.  But expect without evidence. Science tries to discover from scratch. And science contradicts religion. Therefore the situation is we have to choose between mythical answers which have no proof or uncompleted answers in the meantime .

1) You are not doing science, you’re gaping science and blindly repeating what it told you.

As you stated science tries to prove things from scratch, but you’re not doing that.

2) science is not needed to form a deeper perspective on religion, because people in the past before science was invented, were able to construct deeper perspectives on religion and spirituality.

Science is a crutch. And if you want to understand this at a deeper level you have to get rid of it.

It makes no difference if the earth is 10,000 years old or 4.6 billion. How would that deepin ones understanding of anything? If doesn’t.

The stories science is saying is no better than any other story in this context.

“Therefore the situation is we have to choose between mythical answers which have no proof or uncompleted answers in the meantime .”

There’se no need to choose, you have to discover everything on your own from scratch.

Choosing is like picking one story book over the other. Which storybook do you like better? 

Edited Saturday at 11:33 AM by integral