Dr K on how Trump won the election

[Socrates]

 I like this guy but I think what he did in this short is top-tier gaslighting to consider fascists like Trump as valid options.

@Leo Gura Am I too radicalized by Green to dismiss some value in what he said, what do you think?

 

[aurum]

@Socrates

Total nonsense.

Right-wingers cry about not having a voice while literally dismantling the government and free speech in their favor. It's absurd.

 

[Hardkill]

I think the point of what Dr. K is saying is that many young men, especially, many white men feel like the Democratic party has been leaving them behind, while feeling like the Republican party cares about them a lot more.

That's because even though Trump and the GOP have no good policies for addressing the anxieties or problems of younger men, Trump and the Republicans have done a lot more than the Democrats have to reach out to, relate with, and feign empathy with younger men in recent years.

[aurum]

50 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Trump and the Republicans have done a lot more than the Democrats have to reach out to, relate with, and feign empathy with younger men in recent years.

Lower mind sure relates with lower mind.

Funny how that works.

[Joshe]

Yeah, its not that the dems left them behind. It’s that birds of a feather flock together. I can’t stand this framing that the dems have left people behind. As if the Rs have been there for them. Lol. Even in messaging… it’s absurd. It’s just a difference in values. It is gaslighting to act like the Dems have failed in making young men of an opposite ideology feel acknowledged. I’m failing at articulating, but maybe someone could assist me. 

[aurum]

2 hours ago, Joshe said:

I’m failing at articulating, but maybe someone could assist me. 

Dumb like dumb.

[Emerald]

I think there is something to be said about men not getting certain emotional and psychological needs met... and how that makes them susceptible to succumbing to victim's mentality... and right wing radicalization by extension of that victim's mentality.

But that's not a Democrats thing. I don't believe that Democrats have left men in the cold in comparison to other groups. But Democrats also aren't giving them compelling victim narratives to play out their suppressed feelings. So, Democrats aren't as interesting because it doesn't meet that need.

The suppression of these emotional and psychological needs actually comes from old school patriarchal expectations that men suppress their emotions and always be stoic and strong. And then, the isolation of the internet age further compounds that issue.

Those are the real problems facing men today.

And there are these patterns of male suffering that are self-perpetuating and coming from within male groups and content that's geared towards a male audience. And within these groups, there is an expectation of living up to a certain agreed upon standard of Masculinity... which means toughen up and don't show emotions. 

And there are social consequences for not doing that within those male groups. You could get called a pussy and lose the respect of the group if they see you as too Feminine or not Masculine enough.

And because of this social dynamic, a sizable percentage of men (especially young men) do have a lot of vulnerabilities that they aren't facing with.

And men who have these vulnerabilities who aren't facing with them, often get hooked on right wing propaganda which gives them an outlet to sink into the victim role and feel the self-pity and self-compassion they've been denying themselves ... like "Feminists are oppressing you", "Immigrants are stealing your jobs", "black men are going to cuck you", "You're blamed for being a terrible Nazi even for the slightest thing.", "Western women are becoming too Masculine", "If you say literally anything at all, you'll be cancelled.", "You could get blamed for a rape you didn't commit because of Me Too",  etc.

And it gives all of these little mini-victim narratives to men to turn the other into the villain and to get to play the role of the helpless victim (but consciously they identity with the hero). And it unconsciously gives them a way to feel vulnerable about something else other than the real vulnerabilities that have been suppressed and repressed to maintain their Masculine identity.

And that meets the suppressed need for feeling emotional and vulnerable. And it also solves some of the isolation because men who have these feelings gravitate together to get mad at the "villains" that are victimizing them.

Like the Manosphere gives a place for the male victims to get together and get mad at and fight back at the female villains.

There are also majority male spaces that function the same way that cast non-white people or gay/trans people as the villains to play out the victim narrative against.

But if a man were actually okay with meeting his emotional needs and exercised deeper levels of self-compassion, he'd probably be less magnetized to these victim narratives.

And unfortunately, Dr. K just gave another victim narrative for these guys to cling onto that will further block them from turning inwards towards the real problem. They can just go "Well Democrats didn't care about me." and totally overlook their real problems.

[Joshe]

@Emerald well said. I agree 100% regarding the psychological mechanisms in play but what do you make of people like Dr. K and many others who perpetuate this narrative? I mean, I guess it’s just them misreading the situation + bias, but I’ve seen Scott Galloway and many other otherwise intelligent people claiming the Dems have abandoned young men and it just seems ridiculous to me. I intuit a logical fallacy that I haven’t unpacked yet. Maybe those perpetuating it are trying not to further alienate those young men and so they just hop on that narrative because Scott Galloway, Dr. K, etc., their target audiences are young men, so maybe that explains it.

[Emerald]

7 minutes ago, Joshe said:

@Emerald well said. I agree 100% regarding the psychological mechanisms in play but what do you make of people like Dr. K and many others who perpetuate this narrative? I mean, I guess it’s just them misreading the situation + bias, but I’ve seen Scott Galloway and many other otherwise intelligent people claiming the Dems have abandoned young men and it just seems ridiculous to me. I intuit a logical fallacy that I haven’t unpacked yet. Maybe those perpetuating it are trying not to further alienate those young men and so they just hop on that narrative because Scott Galloway, Dr. K, etc., their target audiences are young men, so maybe that explains it.

I think with Dr. K, there's a few things going on.

One is that his paradigm isn't quite holistic enough to understand the dynamic that's really happening with why contemporary men are susceptible to this kind of propaganda.

First off, EVERYONE is susceptible to propaganda because of how our minds and emotions work. And that's true without exception. 

But more specifically, he's still seeing it as based on external factors like what the actual politicians are doing or not doing ... or the way that 'the left' is operating... or cancel culture... etc.

He's not realizing that propaganda works on 100% internal and emotional dynamics... and that the focus on external "problems" (like Democrats, cancel culture, people calling people Nazis, etc.) aren't the real problem.

And if those things didn't exist, there would just be another thing to take their place because those scapegoat topics are scratching an itch to externalize and depersonalize an internal personal problem.

Another thing is that he has a mostly male audience. And there could be a degree of audience capture going on. And you can get lots of likes and clicks by reinforcing common male paradigms and giving men sympathy for these "problems" by telling men what they want to hear.

And people love to hear that they're the victims and the good guys.

But primarily, I think he genuinely holds some of these paradigms himself.... and has some of the same blindspots.

I remember watching a video where he brought on a woman who was talking about an issue that women face on the internet... or in real life. I can't recall specifically. But Dr. K was asking her some questions and she was elucidating the female experience.

And the questions and ways that Dr. K was asking the questions revealed to me that he had some blindspots in his way of thinking about gender dynamics and the female experience... even though he was doing his best to be understanding and impartial. 

So, I tend to think he genuinely believes on some level that society is harsher on men than it is on women... even if he does value mitigating that sentiment as well and understands in the abstract that women are also going through things.

He just has a bit more sympathy and empathy towards men... and that might lead him to sympathize and empathize to where he takes these talking points at face value without exploring the underlying dynamics.

[Staples]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

I think there is something to be said about men not getting certain emotional and psychological needs met... and how that makes them susceptible to succumbing to victim's mentality... and right wing radicalization by extension of that victim's mentality.

Sure that plays a role, but that is no excuse for backing neo-fascists, zionists, sexists, racists, religious extremists and digital robber barons.

I am that twenty something straight white male struggling with money and sex in low to middle class society. I should be Trump's main demographic.

I don't subscribe to that ideology because I recognise it is suicidal. I was lucky to discover self help and people like Leo at an age where I was able to rewire my brain.

The tragedy of it all is that the alt right voter base in being led off a cliff like lemmings because their minds are malnourished and under educated.

Also, most people are just genetically geared to be selfish little pricks. They will do anything that provides short term gratification because they literally can not operate on a timeline longer than a few weeks.

It is their own fault, yet they are also victims of who and what they were born as: Ignorant, greedy hairless monkeys.

Edited 21 hours ago by Staples

[Jacob Morres]

Is he pointing to having conscious conversations? 

[Emerald]

18 minutes ago, Staples said:

Sure that plays a role, but that is no excuse for backing neo-fascists, zionists, sexists, racists, religious extremists and digital robber barons.

I am that twenty something straight white male struggling with money and sex in low to middle class society. I should be Trump's main demographic.

I don't subscribe to that ideology because I recognise it is suicidal. I was lucky to discover self help and people like Leo at an age where I was able to rewire my brain.

The tragedy of it all is that the alt right voter base in being led off a cliff like lemmings because their minds are malnourished and under educated.

Also, most people are just genetically geared to be selfish little pricks. They will do anything that provides short term gratification because they literally can not operate on a timeline longer than a few weeks.

It is their own fault, yet they are also victims of who and what they were born as: Ignorant, greedy hairless monkeys.

I understand why you would be upset with them. I am too.

And I do not mean to excuse the behavior... just to understand it.

But the reality is that, if they could do better, they would do better. You are seeing a fundamental human fragility at work in this dynamic. 

Human beings are incredibly vulnerable.

And never forget... it is only through good fortune of both nature and nurture that you and I are not presently down that rabbit hole with them. 

It's important not to take too much credit or identify too strongly with "being the good one" or "being the smart one" or "being the one that's not ignorant".

Human beings are incredibly vulnerable to things like propaganda and Fascism. And the moment we start believing that we're somehow exempt from these patterns is the moment we become susceptible to them.

[Joshe]

7 minutes ago, Emerald said:

But the reality is that, if they could do better, they would do better

This is an important insight to have. It helps offset the natural feelings of negativity at that which we think is harmful, but it also creates a feeling of hopelessness that requires strength to endure. It’s easy to fall into a pessimistic or nihilistic trap once this insight is fully formed… IME anyway. 

[Emerald]

26 minutes ago, Joshe said:

This is an important insight to have. It helps offset the natural feelings of negativity at that which we think is harmful, but it also creates a feeling of hopelessness that requires strength to endure. It’s easy to fall into a pessimistic or nihilistic trap once this insight is fully formed… IME anyway. 

Yes, it can feel hopeless at first because it really recognizes the collective human fragility.

And it puts the more fortunate humans on edge because there is a sense of being at the mercy of those vulnerable masses.

But it also leads to compassion... which is where truth and love meet as one.

And in the state unconditional absolute compassion, an accurate diagnosis arises... and with it, the cure.

[Staples]

57 minutes ago, Emerald said:

It's important not to take too much credit or identify too strongly with "being the good one" or "being the smart one" or "being the one that's not ignorant".

Oh, I'll be the first to admit how dysfunctional and ape-like I am. I take pride in my ability to do that, where Trump supporters take pride in being hateful and ignorant. That's the difference.

I am privileged to be able to do that.

Edited 20 hours ago by Staples

[Lyubov]

Have we learned nothing from the round 1 explaining frenzy that happened last time Trump was president? 

Trump 45 it was hillbilly elegy and the rust belt, now the author of that book is the VP. Was a load of shit then and now. 

Trump 47 it’s incels and anti-woke? 

I just see it as corruption and regression. I never saw any point in trying to figure this out then or now. It’s so simple. Apes want to throw shit at each other sometimes and then cry like babies after when they reap what they sow. 
 

 

[Leo Gura]

Any explanation of why Trump won which ignore the following points is misguided:

1) Social media epistemic rot, algorithms, and influencer/podcaster populism group-think.

2) Inflation.

[Staples]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Any explanation of why Trump won which ignore the following points is misguided:

1) Social media epistemic rot, algorithms, and influencer/podcaster populism group-think.

2) Inflation.

What does inflation have to do with the Trump mind virus?

I don't think Trump won based on any real economic arguments, only vibes.

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, Staples said:

What does inflation have to do with the Trump mind virus?

I don't think Trump won based on any real economic arguments, only vibes.

It was a huge factor. Inflation was the single most practical factor that affected ordinary, non-ideological voters. Inflation is felt every time you go to buy groceries and it made people feel the current style of government is failing them.

There are few factors as tangible as the 20% inflation we got over the last 4 years. Don't think that voters didn't feel it.

Yes, ideology is huge, but many voters just want a good economy.

I'm a millionaire and even I feel the pain of inflation when I buy my groceries. Without inflation Kamala might have easily won.

Edited 16 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Buck Edwards]

Anyone who thinks fascism is a solution is top tier weird. 

And there's nothing stage green about siding with Dems. It's just basic humanity. 

The reason Trump won - populist virtues gone haywire. Also Trump stood against female candidates. Female candidates are generally perceived as "weak" in America and most patriarchal societies. 

And we never had a charismatic candidate like Obama as an opponent. Also some people are sick of the DEI hires on the Dems. 

 

Edited 16 hours ago by Buck Edwards