Mega-Thread of Low vs High Perspectives

[koops]

On 7/4/2025 at 0:52 AM, Leo Gura said:

Mankind has been massively corrupt for 10,000 years. That doesn't stop progress.

You can't fix corruption from the top down. There is no system you can invent to fix corruption because the human mind itself is corrupt and no one is going to change that.

Still, there can be massive improvement.

Compare a dictator in Ethiopia or Putin to the leaders of Europe.

Or a king in the 1800s to today leaders.

Or racism (slavery), sexism... 200 years ago and today.
 

Corruption can diminish greatly with the advancement in consciousness and rising in spiral dynamics stages.

Is a gradual change that takes decades and centuries, but is happening.

 

[zurew]

On 2025. 04. 06. at 11:36 PM, Leo Gura said:

Shit will just break down and we will deal with it, as mankind always does.

I dont think you appreciate the level of setback and depth "shit will just break down" entails in the context we are in now.

I think appealing to history doesn't work much. Times in the past were different compared to how it is now. Sure you could externalize harm, but not on this scale. In the past, a seriously bad actor could only do so much damage (even if he had all the wealth and all the necessary people), as time passes -especially with the rapid advancement of AI - the potential for a single individual to cause significant harm is increasing at an almost exponential rate, without any need for substantial wealth or for a powerful network of people.

The idea that we will have a casual setback in a society, where each member can have at least a nuclear bomb level effect on a global scale, while having perverse incentives ,  misinformation  and a bunch of bad actors is just naive and not realistic.

We wont go extinct, but there  will be a serious and chaotic setback.

Edited April 10 by zurew

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, zurew said:

I dont think you appreciate the level of setback and depth "shit will just break down" entails in the context we are in now.

Well, but I see no preemptive solution, so there's no way out.

1 minute ago, zurew said:

where each member can have at least a nuclear bomb level effect on a global scale

That's not just not the case. That's not happening.

[abc123]

@Leo Gura

how do you deal and talk with such lower perspectives?

it's difficult to discuss with them about for example politics, religion etc.

I especially notice that they hold assumptions without deeply questioning it. or they accept 1 source of information and don't accept another. and when you mention this source that they put authority on, they defend that source with a whole web of reasons, that also all inherit assumptions. 

but these conversations are obviously inevitable since everyone meets and has people in their life with these lower perspectives. 

Edited April 10 by abc123

[Leo Gura]

@abc123 I don't have a good answer. I teach advanced things for advanced people. I don't really know how to drink beer with your local Joe and talk about football. The ideas I teach would offend the hell out of most normal people.

Edited April 10 by Leo Gura

[abc123]

@Leo Gura

I appreciate your answer. 

It's not just about a local Joe and beer. For example even Biden suffered against this lower perspective from Trump during the debat. And we have seen the implications of it.

I'm aware of all the self deceptions and spiral dynamic stages etc. How hard it is to change someone's mind at all.

But it would be nice to have a somewhat 1% "effective" approach against lower perspectives.

and you are right about how quickly the lower perspectives get offended.

Edited April 10 by abc123

[zurew]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

That's not just not the case. That's not happening.

Its not the case yet (if you interpret it literally), but as AI gets more advanced, the capability to do more harm by anyone who has access to it goes up as well.

[integral]

@abc123  @abc123

You have to think about the impression your leaving and that’s how you get people to follow you

Focus on How they could follow you and not how you can change their mind by teaching them things and you will get what you want

in the real world it’s better to be a role model and lead by example.

It’s your vibe and your respectability that leaves an impression on them

People at a lower perspective are the easiest to fool for the reasons I gave above and why the whole world is run by idiots

Target

- Be impressionable not a teacher

- Aim to acquire a follower not to change a belief

Edited April 10 by integral

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, abc123 said:

But it would be nice to have a somewhat 1% "effective" approach against lower perspectives.

Spiral Wizardry is basically the answer.

You have to empathize with their level on the Spiral and be respectful and lower yourself to their level rather than preaching advanced things down at them.

That's not something I'm practiced in because I just assume my audience are epistemic masochists like me. That works online but not in real life.

Edited April 10 by Leo Gura

[Joel3102]

@Leo Gura How do you deal with parents, specially my dad who aggressively spouts MAGA talking points.

if I’m empathetic and go spiral wizard, I feel weak and let him get away with the insane framing of the conversation.

If I go hard I’m a “Trump Derangement Syndrome” out of touch leftie who just doesn’t understand the “common sense” of regular folk

[Leo Gura]

@Joel3102 Hardcore MAGA basically requires cult deprogramming techniques.

You could try teaching him just about stages of cognitive and ego development. Rather than arguing over content, try to explain structures of the mind. You don't want to get drawn into a debate about trans stuff or guns. You want to keep it about meta mind stuff.

But you're never going to change the mind of someone who doesn't want to grow.

The reason my work works on you guys is because you want to grow. Which is rare. Most people do not want to grow mentally. They just want to survive as they are.

Edited April 10 by Leo Gura

[integral]

@Joel3102 you have to sit with him, drink a beer with him, make him feel like your friend and then you can start talking and exploring the world

Hes Not gonna listen to you when his guard is up and he’s defending himself

This is an emotional child like baboon you’re interacting with 😂

If you can get him high and make him feel good he has a far better chance of progress

Edited April 10 by integral

[Leo Gura]

29 minutes ago, integral said:

This is an emotional child like baboon you’re interacting with

I don't think he's gonna appreciate you regarding him as that.

Problem is, if you regard people are beneath you, they will feel it and close down their minds to your ideas.

So this Spiral Wizardry stuff is really tricky. It's saint's work.

Edited April 10 by Leo Gura

[abc123]

Let's wear red MAGA Wizard hats

Edited April 10 by abc123

[integral]

@Leo Gura i agree, so the comment I made was the opposite, to make them feel like you guys have a connection and then to bond with him and then he will make Progress

I don’t say anything judgementally and I don’t suggest looking down on him at all

But to me people that require all of this effort to think deeply about anything are very childish, and there’s nothing wrong with that, that’s the place they are in life

edit: I do have a problem with miscommunication I’ll fix that in the future

Edited April 10 by integral

[Joel3102]

1 hour ago, integral said:

@Joel3102 you have to sit with him, drink a beer with him, make him feel like your friend and then you can start talking and exploring the world

Hes Not gonna listen to you when his guard is up and he’s defending himself

This is an emotional child like baboon you’re interacting with 😂

If you can get him high and make him feel good he has a far better chance of progress

The funny thing is he doesn’t drink 😂 

Maybe I’d have more chance if we could shoot the shit over a pint

[integral]

6 minutes ago, Joel3102 said:

The funny thing is he doesn’t drink 😂 

Maybe I’d have more chance if we could shoot the shit over a pint

Go to a Trump rally with him, father son bonding

How much do you want this? How much are you willing to sacrifice? (Joke)

[Joel3102]

1 minute ago, integral said:

Go to a Trump rally with him, father son bonding

How much do you want this? How much are you willing to sacrifice? (Joke)

I’m not even American 😂 

United States politics infects Australia and everywhere else in the West lmao. 

[UnbornTao]

Asking good questions can help.

[Nilsi]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That's not just not the case. That's not happening.

That’s a very naive assessment. Combine AI, synthetic biology, and open-source gain-of-function research, and you already have a situation where someone reasonably sophisticated could engineer civilization-wipeout-level viruses from their basement. And let’s not pretend there’s a shortage of deeply disturbed individuals whose sole aim is to inflict maximum suffering on humanity - school shooters, sadistic torturers, the whole spectrum.

I’m honestly surprised you don’t grasp the fragility of the world we’re living in. This could all end in the blink of an eye.