Veganism: low vs high perspective.

[Buck Edwards]

3 minutes ago, integral said:

Veganism is understood at the end of veganism not at the beginning

Well said 

[Thought Art]

5 hours ago, freddyteisen said:

Not eating meat results in serious nutritional deficiencies; Vitamin A, B12, K2, taurine, creatine, anserine, carnosine and many more…

 

I consulted ChatGPT and the only nutrient you can’t get from plants or the sun is B12. Which is from a bacteria. A lot of meat is supplemented with B12 because animals have to eat it to. 
 

Funny, when I first got into veganism/ plant based nutrition this is like first thing I learned
 

Some of the nutrients you listed simply take careful consideration when diet planning for vegans.
 

However, there is a lot more to nutrition then just nutrients I think.  Acid/ Alkaline, the food température (not physical heat), yin/ yang matter. 
 

@freddyteisen

Edited yesterday at 03:54 AM by Thought Art

[integral]

If veganism was viable, we would already have been doing this for thousands of years. 

It’s one of the first things they would’ve figured out a long with fire.

You guys think all of human history was just a bunch of stupid apes slapping rocks into their genitals.

Edited yesterday at 04:04 AM by integral

[Buck Edwards]

3 minutes ago, integral said:

If veganism was viable, we would already have been doing this for thousands of years. 

It’s one of the first things they would’ve figured out a long with fire.

You guys think all of human history was just a bunch of stupid apes slapping rocks into their genitals.

Exactly. In fact ancestors survived through ages and ages because of their robust diet and they were hunter gatherers. 

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, integral said:

Veganism is understood at the end of veganism not at the beginning

What does that mean?

And do you have experiences of the "end of Veganism" for yourself?

[Ero]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The solutions need to understand and accept the following realities:

• Oil consumption will not go down
• Meat eating will not stop
• Nukes will not go away
• AI will not go away
• Wall Street will not go away
• Capitalism will not end
• Socialism will not happen
• Tier 2 will not happen in our lifetime
• Consumer consumption and endless growth will not stop

Now, invent practical solutions within those parameters. That would be a serious engagement with the matter.

Can you write some of your thoughts on the Blog? You can tie it nicely with the last “political winter” piece, which is pure gold. Would be a good testament you can come back to when addressing some of the “black pill” topics in the future and “touch base” with the hippies.

Edited 22 hours ago by Ero

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Ero said:

Can you write some of your thoughts on the Blog? You can tie it nicely with the last “buckle up” piece, which is pure gold. Would be a good testament you can come back to when addressing some of the “black pill” topics in the future. “Touch base” with the hippies.

I will do a video on how to think about climate change. Already in the works.

Edited 22 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Ero]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I will do a video on how to think about climate change. Already in the works.

Can’t wait. Can already tell there will be some serious systemic observations.

[AION]

4 hours ago, integral said:

If veganism was viable, we would already have been doing this for thousands of years. 

It’s one of the first things they would’ve figured out a long with fire.

You guys think all of human history was just a bunch of stupid apes slapping rocks into their genitals.

At the end, they all see the light, unfortunately for a lot when it is too late and the damage is done.

 

[integral]

8 hours ago, Emerald said:

What does that mean?

And do you have experiences of the "end of Veganism" for yourself?

Yes, people go vegan or vegetarian through belief without realizing that they need to first figure out if veganism is suited for them, whether it even works for their genetics. The vegan culture does not explicitly explain that you need vegan genetics to be successful. They’re too busy in a fantasy land, ignoring all the people who fail or gaslighting failures. It is so easy to just say “they did it wrong”

It is not true that you could just take a supplement. You need to get tested every 3 to 6 months. To make sure everything is working correctly, and you need to be aware of signs that things are not working early. To avoid damage.

The risk is real, changing diet is not a game, malnutrition even for short period causes irreversible damage. But most of the time a vegan is too stuck in the vegan echo chamber so they’re going to prolong that malnutrition for years and years as they try to figure out how to make veganismwork. After all, they read multiple books giving them a great confidence. 

Sign that things are not working: bags start developing under your eyes, higher emotional instability, teeth grinding at nigh, erratic energy, overly sensitive, poor muscle recovery, premature ageing, you look like a skull, you have lost all the fat on your face but not other parts of your body, thinning of the skin, thinning of the hair, very low iron levels (women).

If you’re in the right vegan subculture you’re gonna get some awareness, but it won’t be enough.

The right vegan culture is one that doesn’t even promote veganism. It promotes a healthy diet strategically based on a holistic factor that consider someone’s genetics, culture, upbringing, gut microbiome, environment… and so on.

The right diet is not ideological. The right diet does not have an agenda attached to it. 

If you “look like a vegan”, then you gotta get tested right away. The vegan look is a young body with malnutrition. Unfortunately, the body has reserves, and you can deplete yourself for a decade before really noticing it. And most vegans start in their 20s when they have the most youth to burn.

Veganism is one of the most challenging diets that takes expertise that don’t exist in these vegan echo chambers. It is very hard to do this diet, correctly.

When people understand at a higher level what veganism is, they then realize that it is not as simple as pushing veganism on all of the planet, and then reducing animal slaughter and animal suffering. They then realize the full magnitude of the problem. and that a real solution does not exist yet. That we still haven’t engineered a diet that completely avoids animal products, that works at scale for 8+ billion people. They’re still science to be done. 

If vegans had their way, they will create one of the worst health crisis in all of human history. Worse than the plague, worse than what pharmaceutical companies have done, worse than the increased cancer rates caused by every pollutant on earth. It would be catastrophic. 

Edited 15 hours ago by integral

[RendHeaven]

34 minutes ago, integral said:

Yes, people go vegan or vegetarian through belief without realizing that they need to first figure out if veganism is suited for them, whether it even works for their genetics. The vegan culture does not explicitly explain that you need vegan genetics to be successful. They’re too busy in a fantasy land, ignoring all the people who fail or gaslighting failures. It is so easy to just say “they did it wrong”

It is not true that you could just take a supplement. You need to get tested every 3 to 6 months. To make sure everything is working correctly, and you need to be aware of signs that things are not working early. To avoid damage.

The risk is real, changing diet is not a game, malnutrition even for short period causes irreversible damage. But most of the time a vegan is too stuck in the vegan echo chamber so they’re going to prolong that malnutrition for years and years as they try to figure out how to make veganismwork. After all, they read multiple books giving them a great confidence. 

Sign that things are not working: bags start developing under your eyes, higher emotional instability, teeth grinding at nigh, erratic energy, overly sensitive, poor muscle recovery, premature ageing, you look like a skull, you have lost all the fat on your face but not other parts of your body, thinning of the skin, thinning of the hair, very low iron levels (women).

If you’re in the right vegan subculture you’re gonna get some awareness, but it won’t be enough.

The right vegan culture is one that doesn’t even promote veganism. It promotes a healthy diet strategically based on a holistic factor that consider someone’s genetics, culture, upbringing, gut microbiome, environment… and so on.

The right diet is not ideological. The right diet does not have an agenda attached to it. 

If you “look like a vegan”, then you gotta get tested right away. The vegan look is a young body with malnutrition. Unfortunately, the body has reserves, and you can deplete yourself for a decade before really noticing it. And most vegans start in their 20s when they have the most youth to burn.

Veganism is one of the most challenging diets that takes expertise that don’t exist in these vegan echo chambers. It is very hard to do this diet, correctly.

When people understand at a higher level what veganism is, they then realize that it is not as simple as pushing veganism on all of the planet, and then reducing animal slaughter and animal suffering. They then realize the full magnitude of the problem. and that a real solution does not exist yet. That we still haven’t engineered a diet that completely avoids animal products, that works at scale for 8+ billion people. They’re still science to be done. 

If vegans had their way, they will create one of the worst health crisis in all of human history. Worse than the plague, worse than what pharmaceutical companies have done, worse than the increased cancer rates caused by every pollutant on earth. It would be catastrophic. 

5 years ago I was a hardcore vegan.

To this day I still have unreversed lingering side effects

[AION]

@integral and the thing is if a human is long enough on a vegan diet their brain will stop functioning so they can’t even reason themselves out of the diet and they need other people to tell them or they wait until something terrible happens like they start shitting their own guts out.
 

The most insane thing I don’t understand about veganism is that they do vegan diet in their prime years , and coast by on burning their youthful looks, damage their dna and burn through their reserves and while they are in their prime tell people how great their diet is not knowing what awaits them when the chicken comes home to roost.

 

People like banana girl who is an extremist vegans are already banned on YouTube but social media needs to be more strict on putting a limit on these people because they are praying on young vulnerable children to get them aboard on their death cult diet. 

Edited 14 hours ago by AION

[Shane Hanlon]

3 hours ago, integral said:

Yes, people go vegan or vegetarian through belief without realizing that they need to first figure out if veganism is suited for them, whether it even works for their genetics. The vegan culture does not explicitly explain that you need vegan genetics to be successful. They’re too busy in a fantasy land, ignoring all the people who fail or gaslighting failures. It is so easy to just say “they did it wrong”

It is not true that you could just take a supplement. You need to get tested every 3 to 6 months. To make sure everything is working correctly, and you need to be aware of signs that things are not working early. To avoid damage.

The risk is real, changing diet is not a game, malnutrition even for short period causes irreversible damage. But most of the time a vegan is too stuck in the vegan echo chamber so they’re going to prolong that malnutrition for years and years as they try to figure out how to make veganismwork. After all, they read multiple books giving them a great confidence. 

Sign that things are not working: bags start developing under your eyes, higher emotional instability, teeth grinding at nigh, erratic energy, overly sensitive, poor muscle recovery, premature ageing, you look like a skull, you have lost all the fat on your face but not other parts of your body, thinning of the skin, thinning of the hair, very low iron levels (women).

If you’re in the right vegan subculture you’re gonna get some awareness, but it won’t be enough.

The right vegan culture is one that doesn’t even promote veganism. It promotes a healthy diet strategically based on a holistic factor that consider someone’s genetics, culture, upbringing, gut microbiome, environment… and so on.

The right diet is not ideological. The right diet does not have an agenda attached to it. 

If you “look like a vegan”, then you gotta get tested right away. The vegan look is a young body with malnutrition. Unfortunately, the body has reserves, and you can deplete yourself for a decade before really noticing it. And most vegans start in their 20s when they have the most youth to burn.

Veganism is one of the most challenging diets that takes expertise that don’t exist in these vegan echo chambers. It is very hard to do this diet, correctly.

When people understand at a higher level what veganism is, they then realize that it is not as simple as pushing veganism on all of the planet, and then reducing animal slaughter and animal suffering. They then realize the full magnitude of the problem. and that a real solution does not exist yet. That we still haven’t engineered a diet that completely avoids animal products, that works at scale for 8+ billion people. They’re still science to be done. 

If vegans had their way, they will create one of the worst health crisis in all of human history. Worse than the plague, worse than what pharmaceutical companies have done, worse than the increased cancer rates caused by every pollutant on earth. It would be catastrophic. 

https://chatgpt.com/share/678fce00-54a4-800c-8ee5-c4ae285e69f7

[Shane Hanlon]

12 hours ago, integral said:

If veganism was viable, we would already have been doing this for thousands of years. 

It’s one of the first things they would’ve figured out a long with fire.

You guys think all of human history was just a bunch of stupid apes slapping rocks into their genitals.

https://chatgpt.com/share/678fceb2-82f4-800c-ba19-be2116a908f0

[Shane Hanlon]

You guys can get through so many of the psychological traps about almost any topic just by asking chatGPT.

[integral]

23 minutes ago, Shane Hanlon said:

You guys can get through so many of the psychological traps about almost any topic just by asking chatGPT.

You've trapped yourself, my entire post was structured in a way for a vegan to understand how they keep themselves in a bubble reinforcing their narratives.

The problem with a paradigm is you only truly understand what a paradigm is after you experience it shattering by force. 

In this situation you need to have severe health problems with veganism despite supplementation and testing. And you need to see your body deteriorate while you do everything "correctly". And then the illusion is shattered permanently. You now can acknowledge and think about veganism with clarity. That it is not as simple as taking supplements, and it is not as simple as asking chatgpt to repeat the vegan narrative through confirmation bias. I could easily ask chatGPT to reinforce everything I said.

Like I said it takes until you reach the end of veganism to understand veganism. It can't happen before that for bleeding heart vegans.

The outline that I gave was a holistic approach that I feel should be good enough for most vegans to accept.

The productive point you can take from it is to get tested and look for physical signs that's something's wrong, to make sure you're not falling fo the most critical vegan trap. As you deteriorate you won't know your deteriorating because of vegan bias. 

[integral]

@Shane Hanlon A bunch of people here just give you testimonies, YouTube is filled with thousands of testimonies, and the conclusion you are going to come to is.

1. It won't happen to me
2. They did veganism wrong
3. I never felt better 

The Truth: it's not that simple.

---
Ill map out a model of vegan progression, the levels of vegan development. 

Edited 11 hours ago by integral

[Shane Hanlon]

3 hours ago, integral said:

I could easily ask chatGPT to reinforce everything I said.

I was not prompting for anything in particular. You can see in that link, all I've done is copy what you wrote and asked the question "Is this true?"

 

You have a point that being a healthy vegan is not as simple as stopping eating animal products. But all of the science supports that you can be a healthy vegan. I try to follow the science. I supplement and it has been working for me for 5 years now.

I know someone who isn't vegan because her preexisting stomach problems got worse on the diet. I don't hold that against her. I think people should be as considerate of other beings as they possibly can without sacrificing their health. For me I am vegan. For a lot of people that is veganism. Not for everyone.

[Emerald]

@integral I'm going to need some real scientific data to take these claims seriously. So, please provide them and make sure that they're not conducted by industries with conflicts of interest.

I especially need the study where they found that some people have "Vegan genes" and others don't.

According the World Health Organization, you can get all of your nutritional needs met on a Vegan diet except B12, and it's an adequate diet for any phase of life.

And according to various meta-analyses (collections that cross-reference many studies), a Vegan diet is associated with lower instances of all-cause mortality... and is especially associated with lower levels of heart disease (which is the #1 killer in America) and stroke.

So, the Vegan diet is associated with longevity.

I've been ethically Vegan for about 8.5 years, and I was never super health focused until making some recent changes and my energy levels have been normal all the way along. 

I have gained some weight over the years from not paying much attention to what I eat as long as it's Vegan (including unhealthy processed foods)... but I've recently switched to a 100% whole food plant based diet with no refined oils, refined sugars, or processed foods. And I feel very energetic since switching and have started to lose some weight.

But the weight gain is the exact opposite of "looking like a Vegan" stereotype or "looking like a skull".

Usually, people who look like a skull just have an eating disorder and they use Veganism as a means of justifying why they're "not eating ____ because I'm Vegan." But it's really just a way of concealing an eating disorder.

I also know Vegans who have been Vegan for 15+ years. And I have a friend of mine who has never eaten meat in his entire life. And they aren't gaunt or unhealthy.

So, you can't just make a lot of alarmist claims. You have to actually provide some real scientific evidence.

[Emerald]

I did what @Shane Hanlon suggested. @integral Here are the results from Chat GPT after asking "Is this true?" in relation to what you wrote before.

Here's my prompt...

Is this true? "Yes, people go vegan or vegetarian through belief without realizing that they need to first figure out if veganism is suited for them, whether it even works for their genetics. The vegan culture does not explicitly explain that you need vegan genetics to be successful. They’re too busy in a fantasy land, ignoring all the people who fail or gaslighting failures. It is so easy to just say “they did it wrong” It is not true that you could just take a supplement. You need to get tested every 3 to 6 months. To make sure everything is working correctly, and you need to be aware of signs that things are not working early. To avoid damage. The risk is real, changing diet is not a game, malnutrition even for short period causes irreversible damage. But most of the time a vegan is too stuck in the vegan echo chamber so they’re going to prolong that malnutrition for years and years as they try to figure out how to make veganismwork. After all, they read multiple books giving them a great confidence. Sign that things are not working: bags start developing under your eyes, higher emotional instability, teeth grinding at nigh, erratic energy, overly sensitive, poor muscle recovery, premature ageing, you look like a skull, you have lost all the fat on your face but not other parts of your body, thinning of the skin, thinning of the hair, very low iron levels (women). If you’re in the right vegan subculture you’re gonna get some awareness, but it won’t be enough. The right vegan culture is one that doesn’t even promote veganism. It promotes a healthy diet strategically based on a holistic factor that consider someone’s genetics, culture, upbringing, gut microbiome, environment… and so on. The right diet is not ideological. The right diet does not have an agenda attached to it. If you “look like a vegan”, then you gotta get tested right away. The vegan look is a young body with malnutrition. Unfortunately, the body has reserves, and you can deplete yourself for a decade before really noticing it. And most vegans start in their 20s when they have the most youth to burn. Veganism is one of the most challenging diets that takes expertise that don’t exist in these vegan echo chambers. It is very hard to do this diet, correctly. When people understand at a higher level what veganism is, they then realize that it is not as simple as pushing veganism on all of the planet, and then reducing animal slaughter and animal suffering. They then realize the full magnitude of the problem. and that a real solution does not exist yet. That we still haven’t engineered a diet that completely avoids animal products, that works at scale for 8+ billion people. They’re still science to be done. If vegans had their way, they will create one of the worst health crisis in all of human history. Worse than the plague, worse than what pharmaceutical companies have done, worse than the increased cancer rates caused by every pollutant on earth. It would be catastrophic."

ChatGPT said:

ChatGPT

The statement you've shared contains a mix of opinions, factual assertions, and some elements of exaggeration. Let’s break it down into key points to assess its truthfulness and accuracy:

1. Genetic Suitability for Veganism

The idea that "you need vegan genetics to be successful" is misleading. While individual nutritional needs can vary due to factors like genetics, health conditions, and activity level, veganism is not inherently unsuitable for everyone. Many people thrive on a plant-based diet, and the key to success lies in making thoughtful food choices to meet one's nutritional requirements. It’s true that some people may have difficulty absorbing certain nutrients (like vitamin B12, iron, or omega-3 fatty acids) from a plant-based diet, but this is not the same as requiring “vegan genetics.” Nutritional testing and adjustments (including supplements when needed) can address these issues.

2. Veganism and Malnutrition

Malnutrition is a legitimate concern for any diet if not properly balanced, including vegan diets. It's important to plan a vegan diet carefully to ensure adequate intake of essential nutrients. The idea that veganism inherently causes malnutrition or irreversible damage is exaggerated, but it is true that without careful planning, deficiencies in nutrients like vitamin B12, iron, calcium, and omega-3 fatty acids can occur. Regular testing (e.g., for vitamin B12 or iron levels) and supplementation (such as B12 supplements) can help address these potential deficiencies.

3. Supplements and Monitoring

While the statement claims "it is not true that you could just take a supplement," it is generally accepted that vegans should supplement certain nutrients (such as vitamin B12, vitamin D, and possibly omega-3s). Supplements alone are not a solution if the overall diet is not balanced, but they can be a critical part of a healthy vegan diet. The recommendation for regular testing (every 3-6 months) is a practical approach for individuals who are committed to a vegan diet to ensure they are maintaining adequate nutrient levels. However, not everyone needs to test so frequently—many people find that annual testing is sufficient.

4. Vegan "Echo Chambers" and Gaslighting

The accusation that the vegan community dismisses failures or gaslights people who experience problems is a complex issue. Like any subculture, veganism has its own ideological factions. Some people may be overly idealistic about the benefits of veganism and fail to acknowledge the challenges or shortcomings of the diet. However, most health professionals who advocate for plant-based eating emphasize balance, nutritional awareness, and individualization. It's also true that any dietary change can require trial and error and should ideally be done with expert guidance.

5. Signs of Nutritional Imbalance

The signs listed in the statement (e.g., bags under eyes, emotional instability, teeth grinding, thinning hair, premature aging, low iron levels, etc.) could indeed be linked to malnutrition or nutrient deficiencies in some cases, but many of these symptoms are not exclusive to vegans or plant-based eaters. They can also occur due to other health issues unrelated to diet, such as stress, sleep deprivation, hormonal imbalances, or underlying medical conditions. It’s important to consult a healthcare provider for a proper diagnosis.

6. Veganism as a Challenging Diet

Veganism can be a challenging diet to follow, especially if someone is new to it or does not have access to a wide variety of plant-based foods. However, it is also entirely possible to meet all nutritional needs on a vegan diet with proper planning, education, and possibly supplementation. The notion that veganism is inherently difficult or “expertise-heavy” is somewhat exaggerated. Many people around the world thrive on plant-based diets and have done so for generations (e.g., in parts of India, where a vegetarian diet is common). With the right resources and knowledge, a vegan diet can be both simple and healthful.

7. Global Scale of Veganism and the Future of Food

The statement about veganism on a global scale and the implication that it could lead to a “health crisis” if pushed universally is an extreme view. While there are challenges to feeding 8+ billion people with plant-based diets (e.g., the need for sustainable agricultural systems), the claim that veganism could lead to a catastrophic health crisis is not backed by scientific consensus. In fact, many experts argue that a plant-based diet, if properly implemented and supplemented, could help address both health issues and environmental concerns. More research is needed, but there are growing efforts in sustainable plant-based food production, and veganism is being studied more seriously as part of future food systems.

Conclusion

While there are some valid concerns about nutrient deficiencies and the need for careful planning with a vegan diet, many of the claims in this statement are exaggerated or overly alarmist. Veganism can be a healthy and sustainable lifestyle choice for many people, but like any diet, it requires thoughtful planning, nutritional awareness, and possibly supplementation. It’s important to approach veganism (or any diet) with an individualized perspective, considering one’s unique health needs and circumstances. It’s not the diet itself that's inherently flawed, but rather how it is implemented and whether it is done with an informed and balanced approach.