Veganism: low vs high perspective.

[Shane Hanlon]

@Emerald Wow, I am going to have to read this multiple times. You have so much to offer.

I appreciate that we have different styles that are both entirely valid and I have a few more questions.

8 hours ago, Emerald said:

I understand that these shifts must happen from the inside out... not the outside in. Otherwise, they won't be sustainable.

Do you think this is a half-truth? How I understand it, is that change happens from both the inside and the outside and from ways we can't even conceptualize. I often think it doesn't even make sense to think of it as an inside and outside. Rather a whole confluence of co-creating changes from all angles with infinite ripples. I might have an "internal" change of heart that was influenced by an "external" documentary plus and "external" conversation with a friend plus an "internal" questioning of my own biases that was inspired by an "external" paper I read on confirmation bias plus a million other things and on and on.

Maybe it is more accurately stated that "people prefer to change when they feel like they are making their own decision."

What do you think?

 

8 hours ago, Emerald said:

So, I've been deliberately imposing limitations and boundaries on myself when it comes to awareness of suffering. My boundary is that if I have no lever of power to impact things, I will tune out from the suffering. And I will only be aware of the suffering in the degree that my awareness leads through to a tangible benefit to the suffering.

This sounds like a thoughtful way to care for your well-being, and I completely respect that. I don’t want to challenge what feels right for you right now, but I’d like to share a perspective that might resonate or might not.

Sometimes, limiting our awareness to things we feel we can control can be a self-fulfilling prophecy and can unintentionally shape how we see ourselves and the world. While it’s true that our direct control is narrow, the ripple effects of our awareness and actions can be vast. Expanding our awareness, even into areas where we feel powerless, can sometimes open doors to unexpected forms of impact or insight and find possibilities we might not have seen otherwise

 

8 hours ago, Emerald said:

This was a problem with hunter-gatherer groups that eventually got absorbed into tribes. And it was a problem with tribes that eventually got absorbed into nations.

It will likely also happen when our nations get absorbed into the world.

And this will be a problem until we have a collective world identity, where there is no one outside of us. At that point, we can safely live from the space of heart wisdom without being assailed by the forces of external dominance.

And to do this, we must first come together... which is part of what's happening. Eggs are breaking to make and omelette. This part of the process is always chaotic, messy, and even violent.

And the heart-centered forces will likely once again be conquered by the unwise domineering forces to be united under authoritarian rule by the most disconnected among us.

It's just like Rome was united through conquering and domineering... and lots of suffering and bloodshed. 

But once that happens, the barriers will erode more and more until unity is possible. And we will also learn more and more about collective healing.

So, the suffering is part of journey towards mercy. And mercy and suffering are two sides of the same coin.

Out of suffering awareness comes. And from awareness, mercy is born.

But to render the armor obsolete, there are many ideological, technological, and paradigmatic changes that have to happen. And there is a lot that we have to collectively understand and integrate into our ways of rearing children and running society. And I see that it's happening.

This was a really beautiful framing that I had never heard before. Thank you for sharing that.

 

8 hours ago, Emerald said:

Now, with the "we don't have centuries" comment, I think you're referring to climate change. I see that as a problem that will quickly self-correct in a few generations through the drop in the human population due to lower birth rates.

While climate change is an undeniable crisis, it’s just one thread in a much larger and more intricate web of challenges. Sometimes, I wish climate change was the only thing we had to worry about.

Understanding why thinkers like Daniel Schmachtenberger and Nora Bateson are so deeply concerned about the possibility of collapse required me to embark on a two-year deep dive. I immersed myself in scientific papers, ecological realities, historical momentum, economic systems, current trajectories, geopolitical tensions, and more. What I discovered changed me. This is not fearmongering, nor is it the product of emotionally driven thinking or motivated reasoning about collapse. It’s real. The interconnected fragility of our systems is undeniable and yet, so few see it.

If you’re willing to look deeper, I urge you to explore the metacrisis. Even starting with ChatGPT can provide a window into the profound interdependence of everything. Our ecology, economies, cultures, and even the lives we share. You’ll begin to see how deeply connected we all are, not just to each other but to the systems that sustain or threaten life itself. This is not just an intellectual pursuit; it’s about the world we are leaving for our children. What kind of future are we truly preparing for them?

Here are some key topics to explore as starting points:

Planetary Boundaries:
Investigate this concept and the ecological systems underpinning it. It reveals the profound limits and balances that sustain life.

Moloch:
Learn about the destructive incentive structures that drive unsustainable competition at all levels of society.

Distributed Catastrophe Weapons:
Understand how modern tools amplify risks and challenges across the globe.

GDP and Growth-Oriented Economies:
Explore the ways our economic systems push us toward ecological overshoot and social instability.

Sensemaking, Social Media, Education, and Democracy:
Consider how our collective capacity to understand and respond to crises is undermined by fragmented information systems.

Energy, Materials, and Economics:
Discover the limits of energy and material consumption in a finite world.

Reductionism, Ecology, and Incentive Structures:
Reflect on how our ways of thinking—isolated and mechanistic—obscure the interconnected realities of life.

 What you’ll find is profound, humbling, and urgent. And it matters. for you, for me, and for everyone who comes after us.

What is your take on this?

 

Edited Monday at 05:10 AM by Shane Hanlon

[RendHeaven]

3 hours ago, Shane Hanlon said:

Understanding why thinkers like Daniel Schmachtenberger and Nora Bateson are so deeply concerned about the possibility of collapse required me to embark on a two-year deep dive. I immersed myself in scientific papers, ecological realities, historical momentum, economic systems, current trajectories, geopolitical tensions, and more. What I discovered changed me. This is not fearmongering, nor is it the product of emotionally driven thinking or motivated reasoning about collapse. It’s real. The interconnected fragility of our systems is undeniable and yet, so few see it.

Right.

I'm surprised by how often intelligent people respond to alarm bells of the metacrisis with dismissal, as if it's mere "fearmongering"

We're headed off a cliff as a species.

In some sense it's as simple as 1+1=2.

There's not much time left.

[Emerald]

11 hours ago, Shane Hanlon said:

@Emerald Wow, I am going to have to read this multiple times. You have so much to offer.

I appreciate that we have different styles that are both entirely valid and I have a few more questions.

Do you think this is a half-truth? How I understand it, is that change happens from both the inside and the outside and from ways we can't even conceptualize. I often think it doesn't even make sense to think of it as an inside and outside. Rather a whole confluence of co-creating changes from all angles with infinite ripples. I might have an "internal" change of heart that was influenced by an "external" documentary plus and "external" conversation with a friend plus an "internal" questioning of my own biases that was inspired by an "external" paper I read on confirmation bias plus a million other things and on and on.

Maybe it is more accurately stated that "people prefer to change when they feel like they are making their own decision."

What do you think?

Thank you. Of course, people are also influenced by the external. And that's what I think of myself as, as it comes to my children and to a lesser extent my husband. Just having a Vegan in the family and seeing me in a positive light can catalyze a deeper awareness in themselves. 

But truly it has to be their personal decision filtered through their own sense of sovereignty... or it won't stick. And they will go into conformity and rebellion mode relative to whatever is imposed from the outside.

They will either conform, (but unsustainably while having intermittent binges on the restricted foods) to please mom. Or they will develop negative associations with both me, Veganism, and everything I represent and start eating the carnivore diet just to rebel.

That's what happens if you try to impose on people who aren't choosing from a sovereign state. You can influence with the behaviors your modeling, but not impose.

The same is true of the way that I went Vegan. I had to be in the right internal state to make that shift. And 6 months prior to going Vegan, I had never even considered it in the slightest. I knew I would never be Vegan.

But my internal state aligned and put me in a state where I was susceptible to that change.

11 hours ago, Shane Hanlon said:

This sounds like a thoughtful way to care for your well-being, and I completely respect that. I don’t want to challenge what feels right for you right now, but I’d like to share a perspective that might resonate or might not.

Sometimes, limiting our awareness to things we feel we can control can be a self-fulfilling prophecy and can unintentionally shape how we see ourselves and the world. While it’s true that our direct control is narrow, the ripple effects of our awareness and actions can be vast. Expanding our awareness, even into areas where we feel powerless, can sometimes open doors to unexpected forms of impact or insight and find possibilities we might not have seen otherwise

My tendency has been to expand my awareness and be really spreading myself thin trying to come up with ways to "save the world". But it expends my energy in ways that are ineffective.

In an Ayahuasca journey that I took, the medicine revealed to me that my life purpose was mercy. And it brought me back to all the memories of how that purpose had always been pulsing through me as my truest deepest will. 

And it brought me back into a memory of being 3 years old and seeing a commercial about people who were starving and to donate to help them. And I'd never seen one of those kinds of commercials before. And I started to cry and frantically said "I'll give them my food."

And that's been my pattern... be aware of suffering I have no control over. And then, empty my own cup and spin my wheels about things I have limited power to influence or control. 

It's part of my problem with God complex of feeling so responsible for all the suffering in existence.

So, it's a new thing that I'm doing to deliberately contract my aperture of awareness of suffering because all I'm doing is creating suffering for myself. 

And my medicine journeys have been all about mercy through limitation. It even showed me that the reason why I exist is because a part of God's consciousness was suffering too much with the awareness of infinite suffering and infinite knowledge and infinite love.

I went through an ego death experience and there was no Emerald left. And it was just God's consciousness (the same consciousness that has been there my whole life). And God's consciousness was knowing and loving all things in all of existence that had ever been or would ever be at the deepest levels possible. And it was suffering all sufferings and grieving all griefs infinitely.

And the points of awareness kept expanding infinitely in every instance. 

And then, the point of consciousness split from God... to where one consciousness became two. And that spit of consciousness was tended to by the rest of the consciousness. And this point of consciousness tapped out and chose mercy from the infinite.

And then, I was reborn back into the ceremony area. And that's when it showed me my life's purpose... which is mercy. Specifically mercy through limitation and finiteness.

But I have struggled with giving that mercy to myself, because there is this tendency to expand my levels of awareness further and further. And there are these grandiose God Complex-ish tendencies to try to alleviate all the suffering.

But another component of these journeys is to recognize mercy and suffering as two sides to the same coin. A world without suffering is a world without mercy.

But from another angle, it is valuable to minimize suffering as much as possible. 

So... it's like having a God-mind but a human-heart. And my human-hearted part of myself much contract and limit itself... or I just keep pouring from an empty cup as I've done my whole life because of the God complex and feelings of infinite responsibility. 

So, I have to really practice the serenity prayer and differentiate between what's in my power to control and what isn't. And it's trusting the universe, God, and other people to be able to handle what is not in the scope of my power.

So I'm really practicing exercising sovereignty over widening and narrowing the aperture of my awareness as it comes to knowledge and suffering. I'm at a time where I have to let go of my neuroses about suffering and bringing a lot of energy and power back to myself.

And I have power over what I eat.... what I do... what I say. And that's about it. I'm not even watching anything news or politics related at this juncture in my life.

And as I fill my own cup, I can gain somewhat in my scope of power to help. Right now, my own cup is too empty to have maximum impact.

12 hours ago, Shane Hanlon said:

@Emerald

While climate change is an undeniable crisis, it’s just one thread in a much larger and more intricate web of challenges. Sometimes, I wish climate change was the only thing we had to worry about.

Understanding why thinkers like Daniel Schmachtenberger and Nora Bateson are so deeply concerned about the possibility of collapse required me to embark on a two-year deep dive. I immersed myself in scientific papers, ecological realities, historical momentum, economic systems, current trajectories, geopolitical tensions, and more. What I discovered changed me. This is not fearmongering, nor is it the product of emotionally driven thinking or motivated reasoning about collapse. It’s real. The interconnected fragility of our systems is undeniable and yet, so few see it.

If you’re willing to look deeper, I urge you to explore the metacrisis. Even starting with ChatGPT can provide a window into the profound interdependence of everything. Our ecology, economies, cultures, and even the lives we share. You’ll begin to see how deeply connected we all are, not just to each other but to the systems that sustain or threaten life itself. This is not just an intellectual pursuit; it’s about the world we are leaving for our children. What kind of future are we truly preparing for them?

Here are some key topics to explore as starting points:

Planetary Boundaries:
Investigate this concept and the ecological systems underpinning it. It reveals the profound limits and balances that sustain life.

Moloch:
Learn about the destructive incentive structures that drive unsustainable competition at all levels of society.

Distributed Catastrophe Weapons:
Understand how modern tools amplify risks and challenges across the globe.

GDP and Growth-Oriented Economies:
Explore the ways our economic systems push us toward ecological overshoot and social instability.

Sensemaking, Social Media, Education, and Democracy:
Consider how our collective capacity to understand and respond to crises is undermined by fragmented information systems.

Energy, Materials, and Economics:
Discover the limits of energy and material consumption in a finite world.

Reductionism, Ecology, and Incentive Structures:
Reflect on how our ways of thinking—isolated and mechanistic—obscure the interconnected realities of life.

 What you’ll find is profound, humbling, and urgent. And it matters. for you, for me, and for everyone who comes after us.

What is your take on this?

 

All of these things are currently beyond my scope of power to impact. Though I'm sure I could find a few small levers of power from where I currently am that I'm not presently using.

So, these are the types of things that I have to practice the serenity prayer with because I realize that I cannot control any of these things... and trying to will just waste my power and energy on spinning my wheels.

I just have to practice trust and surrender to what is beyond my scope of power and responsibility. 

Focusing on these are all in the range of the "save the world" infinite expansion neurosis that I've had all my life. 

But I'm actively practicing contraction and limitation... and only putting my energy towards what's in my scope of power. And through doing this, I will become more powerful and potent... and gain more levers of power to have a wider impact.

And a big part of this is to detach from outcomes and be okay with both life and death... and to be okay with both mercy and suffering... while doing what's in my power to promote life and mercy.

[Shane Hanlon]

@Emerald It sounds like you and I have quite different neuroses and tendencies. It is a powerful refresher that the most healthy way I can be in relationship with the world is not the most healthy way for anyone else.

Thank you so much for sharing yourself so personally and comprehensively. I admire you. Thank you for bringing mercy to the world. You deserve to fill up your cup.

[Emerald]

5 minutes ago, Shane Hanlon said:

@Emerald It sounds like you and I have quite different neuroses and tendencies. It is a powerful refresher that the most healthy way I can be in relationship with the world is not the most healthy way for anyone else.

Thank you so much for sharing yourself so personally and comprehensively. I admire you. Thank you for bringing mercy to the world. You deserve to fill up your cup.

You're welcome and thank you!

Yes, different people have different purposes and journeys.

And my path is specifically a Feminine path that has to do with a lot of Yin values like limitation, contraction, finiteness, surrender, Earthiness, embrace of death, embrace of suffering, meaning, beauty, imperfection, embrace of the illusion, duality, repetitive cycles with no trajectory, being, etc. 

But the Feminine path is also a dualistic path, so it also includes the Yang/Masculine counterparts of the ones I mentioned above (respectively) unlimitedness, expansion, infinity, triumph, spirituality/intellect, eternal life, mercy, emptiness of meaning, utility, perfection, transcendence of the illusion, oneness, progressive trajectory, doing, etc.

[aurum]

9 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

There's not much time left.

Much time left until what?

[Shane Hanlon]

4 minutes ago, aurum said:

Much time left until what?

There’s not much time left before we hit points of no return, moments when the damage we’ve done can’t be undone, locking us into an increasingly unlivable future. Climate tipping points, like the melting of polar ice or the collapse of rainforests, threaten to set off unstoppable feedback loops. Waiting too long means risking the collapse of ecosystems that sustain us, food system breakdowns, and mass famine. Add to that the rising risk of nuclear conflict, the spread of engineered pathogens, and the destabilizing effects of AI, and it’s clear that the longer we wait, the fewer options we’ll have to turn things around.

What’s even more alarming is how all of these crises are connected, feeding into each other and accelerating exponentially. A warming climate drives geopolitical tensions and resource conflicts. Industrial farming doesn’t just destroy biodiversity, it also sets the stage for global pandemics. AI technologies, far from being a solution, are speeding up economic inequality, misinformation, and competition over power. It’s a vicious cycle where each crisis makes the others worse, pushing the systems we depend on, our economies, our ecosystems, even our societies, closer to collapse.

The truth is, our world is more fragile than it seems. Earth’s ecosystems are finely balanced, and they’re breaking down under the pressure we’ve put on them. Our global systems, from food supply chains to financial networks, are stretched so thin that they’re one major shock away from failing. If we keep waiting, we risk crossing thresholds that will permanently alter life as we know it. Acting now isn’t just the right thing to do, it’s the only way to keep our future from slipping through our fingers.

[aurum]

8 minutes ago, Shane Hanlon said:

There’s not much time left before we hit points of no return, moments when the damage we’ve done can’t be undone, locking us into an increasingly unlivable future. Climate tipping points, like the melting of polar ice or the collapse of rainforests, threaten to set off unstoppable feedback loops. Waiting too long means risking the collapse of ecosystems that sustain us, food system breakdowns, and mass famine. Add to that the rising risk of nuclear conflict, the spread of engineered pathogens, and the destabilizing effects of AI, and it’s clear that the longer we wait, the fewer options we’ll have to turn things around.

What’s even more alarming is how all of these crises are connected, feeding into each other and accelerating exponentially. A warming climate drives geopolitical tensions and resource conflicts. Industrial farming doesn’t just destroy biodiversity, it also sets the stage for global pandemics. AI technologies, far from being a solution, are speeding up economic inequality, misinformation, and competition over power. It’s a vicious cycle where each crisis makes the others worse, pushing the systems we depend on, our economies, our ecosystems, even our societies, closer to collapse.

The truth is, our world is more fragile than it seems. Earth’s ecosystems are finely balanced, and they’re breaking down under the pressure we’ve put on them. Our global systems, from food supply chains to financial networks, are stretched so thin that they’re one major shock away from failing. If we keep waiting, we risk crossing thresholds that will permanently alter life as we know it. Acting now isn’t just the right thing to do, it’s the only way to keep our future from slipping through our fingers.

You are stuck in metacrisis group-think.

[Shane Hanlon]

5 minutes ago, aurum said:

You are stuck in metacrisis group-think.

I doubt it, but tell me more.

[aurum]

5 minutes ago, Shane Hanlon said:

I doubt it, but tell me more.

Just think about it.

[Shane Hanlon]

@aurum I have thought about it deeply for 2 years from many different perspectives. If you are going to critique it, be prepared to critique it. This is lazy. 

[aurum]

39 minutes ago, Shane Hanlon said:

@aurum I have thought about it deeply for 2 years from many different perspectives. If you are going to critique it, be prepared to critique it. This is lazy. 

We've already had several conversations about my perspective.

2 years is not nearly enough to gain a big-picture understanding of our collective situation. 

[Shane Hanlon]

2 minutes ago, aurum said:

We've already had several conversations about my perspective.

2 years is not nearly enough to gain a big-picture understanding of our collective situation. 

If you are so certain it is groupthink, say something to change my mind. I'm open to it. I'm not dogmatically following an ideology. I find Leo to have a lot of insight, but on this forum almost all of my responses to him are challenging his ideas. If I am missing something important I would be super grateful for you to show me this.

After deeply studying it for two years almost full-time (I make enough money to be able to take huge chunks of time off for this kind of thing), I am highly confident in many of the metacrisis premises. I think there is some worry of overstating the dangers and also understating them. I think there is a warranted aversion to talking about solutions that also hinders progress towards better futures. I think it is dense and people's again warranted aversion towards reductionism ends up leaving out people who aren't intellectually gifted.

These are some of my critiques of metacrisis premises. Tell me yours. You are so confident in your proclamations, surely you have some.

[RendHeaven]

1 hour ago, aurum said:

Just think about it.

A little too flippant for my liking.

Metacrisis-awareness is not mindless doomerism, it's a nuanced observation of specific interdependent dynamics.

This is not shit you can make up or merely pull out of your ass.

• Our rate of extincting species is undeniably increasing each year. This has unfathomable ripple effect consequences.
• Likewise, planetary boundaries are markedly and unambiguously worse each year.
• Microplastics are found in rainwater all over the globe, including the arctic where there are no humans.
• New studies strongly correlate microplastics to a plethora of disease risks.
• By 2050 it is projected that there will be more plastic in the ocean than fish.
• AI, which is touted as the deus ex machina for our energy crisis, has been promptly co-opted by big oil companies to accelerate extraction efficiency.
• Trump&Elon being in office only eggs them on, as regulations get gutted.
• Geopolitical tensions get worse each year while our growth-oriented monetary system drives up prices and keeps countries and individuals in debt which necessarily threatens social stability.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg. You may consider this group-think, but you would be hard-pressed to falsify anything I've said.

• Are you really willing to argue that our biodiversity loss is a boogeyman myth? or godforbid that it is harmless?
• Are you really willing to argue that our planet is on a trajectory towards a thriving sustainable future when 6 out of 9 planetary boundaries have been breached (possibly irreversibly)?
• Are you really willing to argue that a plastic-infested planet with plastic-infested humans is harmless?
• Are you really willing to argue that AI will save us all when its current applications are doing the exact opposite?
• Are you really willing to act like Trump&Elon in power are harmless?
• Are you really willing to claim that our geopolitical landscape is peaceful and stable?
• Do you really think our monetary system is long term sustainable?

None of these are separate issues. There are common drivers (i.e. "generator functions") behind every crisis/issue.

The biggest one perhaps is personal survival maximization at the cost of one's surroundings.

Every problem I've listed is directly borne of a short-term survival-maximization play by egos.

When one player does this, it's not a big deal. When absolutely everyone is doing this, we have an uncontrollable snowball effect.

The ship becomes too large to steer; the system devours itself eventually.

We'll be fine for several years - yes. Nobody is saying we're gonna die tomorrow.

But certainly within our lifetimes, there will be enormous systematic change - for better or for worse is yet to be seen.

The point is that our current trajectory is literally unsustainable.

This is quite easy to personally determine. Group think is rather unnecessary.

We have finite resources on a finite planet but our system demands exponential growth. 1+1=2.

Collapse of the current system is inevitable unless we reorient our values and steer the ship together in a new direction.

Whether or not we have a livable planet in 100 years is seriously unclear. If anything, to take for granted that "everything will be fine" seems to be the group-think position to me.

Edited Monday at 07:59 PM by RendHeaven
additional detail

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, aurum said:

You are stuck in metacrisis group-think.

Metacrisis meta-group-think

[aurum]

59 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

A little too flippant for my liking.

Metacrisis-awareness is not mindless doomerism, it's a nuanced observation of specific interdependent dynamics.

This is not shit you can make up or merely pull out of your ass.

• Our rate of extincting species is undeniably increasing each year. This has unfathomable ripple effect consequences.
• Likewise, planetary boundaries are markedly and unambiguously worse each year.
• Microplastics are found in rainwater all over the globe, including the arctic where there are no humans.
• New studies strongly correlate microplastics to a plethora of disease risks.
• By 2050 it is projected that there will be more plastic in the ocean than fish.
• AI, which is touted as the deus ex machina for our energy crisis, has been promptly co-opted by big oil companies to accelerate extraction efficiency.
• Trump&Elon being in office only eggs them on, as regulations get gutted.
• Geopolitical tensions get worse each year while our growth-oriented monetary system drives up prices and keeps countries and individuals in debt which necessarily threatens social stability.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg. You may consider this group-think, but you would be hard-pressed to falsify anything I've said.

• Are you really willing to argue that our biodiversity loss is a boogeyman myth? or godforbid that it is harmless?
• Are you really willing to argue that our planet is on a trajectory towards a thriving sustainable future when 6 out of 9 planetary boundaries have been breached (possibly irreversibly)?
• Are you really willing to argue that a plastic-infested planet with plastic-infested humans is harmless?
• Are you really willing to argue that AI will save us all when its current applications are doing the exact opposite?
• Are you really willing to act like Trump&Elon in power are harmless?
• Are you really willing to claim that our geopolitical landscape is peaceful and stable?
• Do you really think our monetary system is long term sustainable?

None of these are separate issues. There are common drivers (i.e. "generator functions") behind every crisis/issue.

The biggest one perhaps is personal survival maximization at the cost of one's surroundings.

Every problem I've listed is directly borne of a short-term survival-maximization play by egos.

When one player does this, it's not a big deal. When absolutely everyone is doing this, we have an uncontrollable snowball effect.

The ship becomes too large to steer; the system devours itself eventually.

We'll be fine for several years - yes. Nobody is saying we're gonna die tomorrow.

But certainly within our lifetimes, there will be enormous systematic change - for better or for worse is yet to be seen.

The point is that our current trajectory is literally unsustainable.

This is quite easy to personally determine. Group think is rather unnecessary.

We have finite resources on a finite planet but our system demands exponential growth. 1+1=2.

Collapse of the current system is inevitable unless we reorient our values and steer the ship together in a new direction.

Whether or not we have a livable planet in 100 years is seriously unclear. If anything, to take for granted that "everything will be fine" seems to be the group-think position to me.

The metacrisis framework offers a high quality perspective. I appreciate the work being done by people involved in it.

But it's still limited. And it's still subject to group-think like everything else.

59 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

Collapse of the current system is inevitable unless we reorient our values and steer the ship together in a new direction.

There's the error.

The ship is not going to change course.

[Shane Hanlon]

1 minute ago, aurum said:

The ship is not going to change course.

 

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Metacrisis meta-group-think

Can someone explain something that is missing? sharing your opinion that you believe our systems are not going to change is not a flaw of metacrisis premises.

It's the same thing with you two over and over. Proclaiming ever so bravely to the world that systems aren't going to change.

Just because you don't believe systems can change, doesn't mean keeping current systems doesn't end in collapse. I want to believe you guys are trying to add something to the conversation. But you are yet to add it. If you have a serious deep dive to critique the metacrisis framework, I am all ears. But short sound bites mean nothing to me.

[RendHeaven]

2 minutes ago, aurum said:

The ship is not going to change course.

I agree. I never said it would.

There's a part 2 to my explanation above which is often better left unsaid since it's a personal speculation, and a grim one at that...

But I predict a majority of us will eat shit down the line - by which I mean, serious loss and suffering and yes, death.

Because likely nothing will change, and we have already established that the ship is headed directly towards an iceberg.

But all that grim stuff is my own conjecture. Metacrisis framework is very solid as far as diagnosing the problem.

5 minutes ago, Shane Hanlon said:

It's the same thing with you two over and over. Proclaiming ever so bravely to the world that systems aren't going to change.

Just because you don't believe systems can change, doesn't mean keeping current systems doesn't end in collapse.

I do share their opinion that our system will not change in time.

The anti-rivalrous omni-considerate dynamics necessary to escape the metacrisis unscathed requires that the majority of the global population develops SD tier-2 cognition. And if even a handful of powerful actors lag behind in tier-1 cognition, the scheme fails.

This simply will not happen.

That being said, you're completely right - keeping current systems will end in collapse.

So. Put 2 and 2 together and try not to lose your marbles

[Leo Gura]

@Shane Hanlon Systems will of course change, but they will not change from the theorizing and hand-wringing from Tier 2, Game B hippie intellectuals obessing over the end of mankind and telling us to consume less.

I respect Schamatchenberger's intelligence very much, but if you zoom out and get real, his project is not going to change the course of society. It strikes me as out of touch with our political and development social reality. While he is obsessing over ecological collapse and game theory, fascist clowns are piloting the plane into a mountain.

This Game B stuff sounds very wise and cool, but it is not how politics nor business works.

Edited Monday at 09:33 PM by Leo Gura

[RendHeaven]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

fascist clowns are piloting the plane into a mountain.

Great, we all agree