Veganism: low vs high perspective.

[Emerald]

6 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Absolutely agree. Important points.

 

[Emerald]

58 minutes ago, Shane Hanlon said:

 

@Emerald you are going off in this thread! I'm very impressed with your articulation of the dialectic between heart-based wisdom and intellectualization. Both are important and you talk about both so eloquently. I agree that in the context of this forum, there is a lot of intellectualization without grounding. People attempting to understand nuance without a heart rudder are lost in the sea of their minds.

Thank you.

That's a pattern that I notice a lot on here. And you are correct that it's in other places as well. 

But especially intellectual spaces... the people in them can be expert mental gymnasts to rationalize away all sorts of down to Earth truths that the youngest children can see quite plainly.

All the intellectualizations are the Emperor's New Clothes.

Edited Sunday at 06:11 PM by Emerald

[AION]

The road to hell is paved with “heart based” intentions … 

[Shane Hanlon]

@Emerald How do you emotionally contend with the rest of your family and loved ones contributing to all of this suffering? I struggle with this personally.

[Shane Hanlon]

10 minutes ago, AION said:

The road to hell is paved with “heart based” intentions … 

@Emerald Or a response like this--seemingly not even trying to engage in what is being communicated at the cost of real harm and suffering. How do you emotionally relate to this? It hurts me.

Edited Sunday at 06:28 PM by Shane Hanlon

[Emerald]

24 minutes ago, Shane Hanlon said:

@Emerald How do you emotionally contend with the rest of your family and loved ones contributing to all of this suffering? I struggle with this personally.

I tend to keep the visceral awareness of the suffering away from myself. When I first went Vegan, I watched Earthlings and really faced into those realities of suffering and made my choice from there... on the condition that I not dwell on it and instead focus on what little bit I can control.

So with my family, I don't feel the visceral sense of awareness of animal suffering associated with their actions... or anyones.

And this enables me to allow other people their sovereignty to make these decisions from an internal sovereign place rather than because I'm pressuring them to. And I see it as more likely that my children will one day make the decision to go Vegan from that sovereign place if I present myself as a role model than as an authoritarian source of pressure... which would backfire.

So, I just remind myself that humanity is a work in progress out of our collective disconnection and that we are making strides, even if it's slow from the perspective of the individual human life.

But a good thing that's come about is that my eating habits have influenced my husband's eating habits quite a bit. And so, we don't keep much meat or dairy in the house.

[Emerald]

27 minutes ago, Shane Hanlon said:

@Emerald Or a response like this--seemingly not even trying to engage in what is being communicated at the cost of real harm and suffering. How do you emotionally relate to this? It hurts me.

It's apt that it's Vince McMahon on the gif.  

But to answer your question, it's deeply frustrating to me. I can feel a lot of rage because I can easily stand in the shoes of another being and imagine myself on the receiving end of their superior power and ignorance.

But there are reasons why people tune out from their heart-wisdom that I have had the good fortune to see very clearly in several of my Ayahuasca journeys. 

Everyone is just a really sensitive vulnerable child deep down. And becoming callous and developing all sorts of intellectual and emotional armor is what seems to keep them safe... or perhaps did keep them safe at some point in their lives.

So, I see the solution to the majority of our macrocosmic problems as coming from an ignorance to how to render that armor obsolete.

I may not see it in my lifetime, but we are just now scratching the surface of how much collective healing we can do. And once that healing ripple gets going (which it already has been truthfully) we will start to naturally manifest a more compassionate societal structure and raise more compassionate children.

But it may take some centuries to really see the cumulative effects of these shifts.

[integral]

1 hour ago, Shane Hanlon said:

Feeling into this and then having an emerging desire to change people's minds so they no longer contribute to this should not be conflated with moral righteousness and crusading.

From 1 to 10 how emotionally affected are you by the suffering of all these animals.

 

[Shane Hanlon]

@Emerald Thank you for your beautiful and thoughtful responses.

 

31 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I tend to keep the visceral awareness of the suffering away from myself. When I first went Vegan, I watched Earthlings and really faced into those realities of suffering and made my choice from there... on the condition that I not dwell on it and instead focus on what little bit I can control.

So with my family, I don't feel the visceral sense of awareness of animal suffering associated with their actions... or anyones.

I recognize the effectiveness of this approach, but I also don't know if it suits me. While it is deeply painful to be connected to the suffering, it is also immensely powerful and beautiful to maintain that sense of interdependence and connection to all other life.

 

31 minutes ago, Emerald said:

And this enables me to allow other people their sovereignty to make these decisions from an internal sovereign place rather than because I'm pressuring them to. And I see it as more likely that my children will one day make the decision to go Vegan from that sovereign place if I present myself as a role model than as an authoritarian source of pressure... which would backfire.

How do you navigate the tension between allowing other humans their internal sovereignty and contending with the animal's lack of any sovereignty?

 

31 minutes ago, Emerald said:

So, I just remind myself that humanity is a work in progress out of our collective disconnection and that we are making strides, even if it's slow from the perspective of the individual human life.

While there is progress in some areas, there is also destruction in others. Technologically we have advanced massively, in large part due to fossil fuels. We have new frameworks for making sense of the world, but can we truly say humanity is making progress in this context we are referencing if indigenous communities (that are now almost entirely wiped out) are lightyears ahead of us in their heart-wisdom? How do you understand that progress is being made?

 

24 minutes ago, Emerald said:

So, I see the solution to the majority of our macrocosmic problems as coming from an ignorance to how to render that armor obsolete.

This is a beautiful idea. How can we create contexts that render that armor obsolete? Beautiful.

 

24 minutes ago, Emerald said:

But it may take some centuries to really see the cumulative effects of these shifts.

We don't have centuries

Edited Sunday at 07:23 PM by Shane Hanlon

[Shane Hanlon]

7 minutes ago, integral said:

From 1 to 10 how emotionally affected are you by the suffering of all these animals.

 

I feel deeply emotionally moved. I'm not sure how helpful reducing these complex emotions down to a 1 to 10 number is.

[integral]

@Shane Hanlon it represents the level of clarity you're allowed to access at this moment in time. It's like a bottleneck. 

Or its as if an explosion just happened (realization of animals), and this explosion pushed up sand into the air, clouding the air and you need to wait until the dust settles before you can see again. 

Edited Sunday at 08:26 PM by integral

[aurum]

2 hours ago, Emerald said:

So, I was a bit surprised to hear him prioritize compassion. He always struck me as robotic and prioritizing longevity over all else.

He is swimming in LA and silicon valley group think.

Veganism is just part of it.

[Leo Gura]

20 minutes ago, aurum said:

He is swimming in LA and silicon valley group think.

Veganism is just part of it.

Could be both. They dovetail.

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Shane Hanlon said:

@Emerald Thank you for your beautiful and thoughtful responses.

 

I recognize the effectiveness of this approach, but I also don't know if it suits me. While it is deeply painful to be connected to the suffering, it is also immensely powerful and beautiful to maintain that sense of interdependence and connection to all other life.

 

How do you navigate the tension between allowing other humans their internal sovereignty and contending with the animal's lack of any sovereignty?

 

While there is progress in some areas, there is also destruction in others. Technologically we have advanced massively, in large part due to fossil fuels. We have new frameworks for making sense of the world, but can we truly say humanity is making progress in this context we are referencing if indigenous communities (that are now almost entirely wiped out) are lightyears ahead of us in their heart-wisdom? How do you understand that progress is being made?

 

This is a beautiful idea. How can we create contexts that render that armor obsolete? Beautiful.

 

We don't have centuries

Thank you and you're welcome

That makes sense that the approach doesn't work for you. A tendency that I've struggled with is the tendency to be super emotionally aware of all the sufferings of the world... over which I have very few levers of power.

And there's been this tendency to hyper-fixate on suffering... usually human suffering but sometimes non-human animal suffering as well.

And this has led to this expending energy in a way that doesn't get traction... and just creates a lot of distress for me because my power to create mercy is limited. And I suffer in the spinning of the wheels and getting little traction.

So, I've been deliberately imposing limitations and boundaries on myself when it comes to awareness of suffering. My boundary is that if I have no lever of power to impact things, I will tune out from the suffering. And I will only be aware of the suffering in the degree that my awareness leads through to a tangible benefit to the suffering.

Right now is a period of time where I need to pull all of my energy towards myself and my family. So, I am deliberately contracting myself... instead of engaging in my usual patterns of being the single tablespoon of peanut butter trying to spread itself over every slice of bread in existence.

The way that I contend with allowing others sovereignty while animals are denied that sovereignty is to recognize the limitations on my own power. Currently, reality runs in a way where most human beings regularly consume animals. And while a part of myself is upset by that and would want to make that stop by any means necessary, I understand that these shifts must happen from the inside out... not the outside in. Otherwise, they won't be sustainable. 

And I see that putting pressure on it from the outside will be counter-productive. The best I can do is to help compassionate people become conscious that their actions aren't matching their values. So, it's less values focused and more awareness focused. 

And my understanding of the progress that's being made is one that's 10 steps forward and 9 steps back. We lose a lot of wisdom as we go but we also gain more. But there's a lot of contrast between the positive and negative.

The thing that we're moving towards is a more united world. And while some tribes may have had an advanced sense of compassion and heart-wisdom, they would tend to be wiped out by other tribes and nations that lack in the heart-wisdom that don't feel connected to the harm they're causing.

And that becomes a problem that heart-wisdom has always been met with hostility and dominance by outside domineering forces that are far less wise.

This was a problem with hunter-gatherer groups that eventually got absorbed into tribes. And it was a problem with tribes that eventually got absorbed into nations.

It will likely also happen when our nations get absorbed into the world.

And this will be a problem until we have a collective world identity, where there is no one outside of us. At that point, we can safely live from the space of heart wisdom without being assailed by the forces of external dominance.

And to do this, we must first come together... which is part of what's happening. Eggs are breaking to make and omelette. This part of the process is always chaotic, messy, and even violent.

And the heart-centered forces will likely once again be conquered by the unwise domineering forces to be united under authoritarian rule by the most disconnected among us.

It's just like Rome was united through conquering and domineering... and lots of suffering and bloodshed. 

But once that happens, the barriers will erode more and more until unity is possible. And we will also learn more and more about collective healing.

So, the suffering is part of journey towards mercy. And mercy and suffering are two sides of the same coin.

Out of suffering awareness comes. And from awareness, mercy is born.

But to render the armor obsolete, there are many ideological, technological, and paradigmatic changes that have to happen. And there is a lot that we have to collectively understand and integrate into our ways of rearing children and running society. And I see that it's happening.

Now, with the "we don't have centuries" comment, I think you're referring to climate change. I see that as a problem that will quickly self-correct in a few generations through the drop in the human population due to lower birth rates.

There will be some side issues with this that will impact our human systems for several decades or perhaps a half a century or so. But it will likely slow or solve that problem.

[Emerald]

32 minutes ago, aurum said:

He is swimming in LA and silicon valley group think.

Veganism is just part of it.

It could be that. Though I would expect a lot of Carnivore and Paleo dieters in that context. I've noticed that techy business-oriented people tend to go for those types of diets. Those seem to be more in fashion.

[AION]

4 hours ago, Shane Hanlon said:

@Emerald Or a response like this--seemingly not even trying to engage in what is being communicated at the cost of real harm and suffering. How do you emotionally relate to this? It hurts me.

My intention is to not hurt but just add some humor. There can be truth in humor and I’m actually holding back in this topic. I came to understand that people can be very emotional and religious about their food and me just going balls deep about my truth is not going to change anything so I’m trying to be more heart based actually. 

[aurum]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Could be both. They dovetail.

Yeah that's possible. I don't think it's all for show.

2 hours ago, Emerald said:

It could be that. Though I would expect a lot of Carnivore and Paleo dieters in that context. I've noticed that techy business-oriented people tend to go for those types of diets. Those seem to be more in fashion.

It's a mix.

A lot of the biohackers gravitate towards animal-based diets, but veganism is popular too.

Hard for me to say which group is winning.

[Thought Art]

@aurum it’s probably not a winning or losing kinda thing but health in general. 
 

Like Leo says, ideology is limited. 
 

Each of these diets are not robust and holistic enough likely as nutrition isn’t well understood. 
 

I like Bryan Johnson’s approach of referring to the data, and the Toaist approach about balance. 

Edited Monday at 12:01 AM by Thought Art

[aurum]

Just now, Thought Art said:

@aurum it’s probably not a winning or losing kinda thing but health in general. 

I meant winning or losing in terms of what is more popular. Not health outcomes.

Obviously health should be the goal of any diet. 

[Shane Hanlon]

7 hours ago, integral said:

it represents the level of clarity you're allowed to access at this moment in time. It's like a bottleneck. 

Or its as if an explosion just happened (realization of animals), and this explosion pushed up sand into the air, clouding the air and you need to wait until the dust settles before you can see again. 

I hear what you are saying. Making emotional decisions that you then post rationalize to align your thinking with your emotions is dysfunctional. But a more developed and healthy relationship allows your emotions to help clarify your seeing rather than cloud it. This isn't a burst of emotion. I have been vegan for 5 years.

 

5 hours ago, AION said:

My intention is to not hurt but just add some humor. There can be truth in humor and I’m actually holding back in this topic. I came to understand that people can be very emotional and religious about their food and me just going balls deep about my truth is not going to change anything so I’m trying to be more heart based actually.

Thank you for clarifying this. I appreciate you.

Edited Monday at 04:09 AM by Shane Hanlon