Here’s an interesting perspective on intuition

[Leo Gura]

@Salvijus Good luck with that.

[RendHeaven]

1 hour ago, Salvijus said:

The simplest example is the musical one that I gave before. Each note revebarates at a certain frequency. When one of those notes is off, it is jarring to the system and you know it is off not by intellectual analysis but by feeling the resonance of sounds.

A note being "off" amounts to our bias being denied. Has nothing to do with truth detection.

Have you ever seriously contemplated why tones sound good or bad? Or is this taken for granted?

Go find a piano, play a C major triad. And ponder for 1000 hours why this sound is pleasing (even though it's equal temperament lmao)

---

Spoiler - you like it for the same reason sugar tastes good. Because Consciousness had a bias.

Sugar is no more truthful than dogshit, and a gorgeous chord is no more truthful than a banshee screeching.

This is precisely the kind of new-age "intuition" trap that Leo warns against.

Your favorite example works against you...

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

@Salvijus Good luck with that.

🙏

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, RendHeaven said:

A note being "off" amounts to our bias being denied. Has nothing to do with truth detection.

Have you ever seriously contemplated why tones sound good or bad? Or is this taken for granted?

Go find a piano, play a C major triad. And ponder for 1000 hours why this sound is pleasing (even though it's equal temperament lmao)

---

Spoiler - you like it for the same reason sugar tastes good. Because Consciousness had a bias.

Sugar is no more truthful than dogshit, and a gorgeous chord is no more truthful than a banshee screeching.

This is precisely the kind of new-age "intuition" trap that Leo warns against.

Your favorite example works against you...

No it's not a personal taste or bias. There is science to it why certain sounds are dissonate with each other and others are in harmony. 

[AION]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

You can know to take a crap without mental analysis because it is not a conceptual matter.

And even there, you can fool yourself.

There actually people who are too dumb to take a dump 🤦🏾

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, AION said:

There actually people who are too dumb to take a dump 🤦🏾

There is a medical disorder where people feel a burning need to pee but their bladder is already empty.

So even peeing is not immune from self-deception. Nevermind all the New Age swill humans believe.

Edited 22 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Davino]

@Salvijus I guess you always ace multiple choice exams by the intuition of the heart and the vibration of truth.

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, Davino said:

@Salvijus I guess you always ace multiple choice exams by the intuition of the heart and the vibration of truth.

Possible. If you're Jesus christ. 

[RendHeaven]

Just now, Salvijus said:

No it's not a personal taste or bias. There is science to it why certain sounds are dissonate with each other and others are in harmony. 

I began learning piano at age 3 and violin at age 4.

As a teenager I was part of the most grueling program in the Chicago youth symphony orchestra, and performed in Chicago's famed Symphony Hall.

I was an A-student in AP music theory in early highschool and was paid as a teaching assistant for music theory during university.

I have spent close to a decade contemplating tonal harmony. I have watched all 13+ hours of Berstein's Norton Lectures 3-times over.

My best friend is a jazz pianist with rare improv talent, and he is an Actualized.org enjoyer as am I. This topic is our bread and butter.

Unless you are a professor or a freak, I guarantee I have a better understanding of this terrain than you.

You say "there is science to it" as if I haven't spent the last 10 years crunching the numbers in-person.

I can backwards engineer and mathematically justify every note of our equal temperament 12-tone scale system. I have memorized the wavelength ratios of all intervals. And even after all of that, harmonic beauty is a mystery to me.

It is totally arbitrary that a perfect fifth should sound any more pleasing than a minor second.

The science you point to rests on the assumption that certain tones sound better. The pleasing sound is taken for granted.

It is pure bias.

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

I began learning piano at age 3 and violin at age 4.

As a teenager I was part of the most grueling program in the Chicago youth symphony orchestra, and performed in Chicago's famed Symphony Hall.

I was an A-student in AP music theory in early highschool and was paid as a teaching assistant for music theory during university.

I have spent close to a decade contemplating tonal harmony. I have watched all 13+ hours of Berstein's Norton Lectures 3-times over.

My best friend is a jazz pianist with rare improv talent, and he is an Actualized.org enjoyer as am I. This topic is our bread and butter.

Unless you are a professor or a freak, I guarantee I have a better understanding of this terrain than you.

You say "there is science to it" as if I haven't spent the last 10 years crunching the numbers in-person.

I can backwards engineer and mathematically justify every note of our equal temperament 12-tone scale system. I have memorized the wavelength ratios of all intervals. And even after all of that, harmonic beauty is a mystery to me.

Very cool.

I once had a guy who worked for me who had perfect pitch. He was a natural musician.

I was actually thinking of getting into making music, although I have zero experience.

- - - - -

The diversity of taste is indeed a mystery.

Edited 22 hours ago by Leo Gura

[vibv]

6 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

You say "there is science to it" as if I haven't spent the last 10 years crunching the numbers in-person.

I can backwards engineer and mathematically justify every note of our equal temperament 12-tone scale system. I have memorized the wavelength ratios of all intervals. And even after all of that, harmonic beauty is a mystery to me.

It is totally arbitrary that a perfect fifth should sound any more pleasing than a minor second.

The science you point to rests on the assumption that certain tones sound better. The pleasing sound is taken for granted.

It is pure bias.

What about the harmonic series? The octave and fifth are the most simple whole number multiples of a base frequency, therefore sounding harmonic, no?

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, RendHeaven said:

I began learning piano at age 3 and violin at age 4.

As a teenager I was part of the most grueling program in the Chicago youth symphony orchestra, and performed in Chicago's famed Symphony Hall.

I was an A-student in AP music theory in early highschool and was paid as a teaching assistant for music theory during university.

I have spent close to a decade contemplating tonal harmony. I have watched all 13+ hours of Berstein's Norton Lectures 3-times over.

My best friend is a jazz pianist with rare improv talent, and he is an Actualized.org enjoyer as am I. This topic is our bread and butter.

Unless you are a professor or a freak, I guarantee I have a better understanding of this terrain than you.

You say "there is science to it" as if I haven't spent the last 10 years crunching the numbers in-person.

I can backwards engineer and mathematically justify every note of our equal temperament 12-tone scale system. I have memorized the wavelength ratios of all intervals. And even after all of that, harmonic beauty is a mystery to me.

It is totally arbitrary that a perfect fifth should sound any more pleasing than a minor second.

The science you point to rests on the assumption that certain tones sound better. The pleasing sound is taken for granted.

It is pure bias.

Let's say you're right. The fact remains the same, there is something inside of us that knows the interval of every sound and can tell if it's in tune or not without the use of mental analysis. Just by feeling the resonance of it. That's point number one. Point number two. There is a way to know what is in tune with love and what is not in tune with love by the very same principle. 

Edited 22 hours ago by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, RendHeaven said:

You say "there is science to it" as if I haven't spent the last 10 years crunching the numbers in-person.

I can backwards engineer and mathematically justify every note of our equal temperament 12-tone scale system. I have memorized the wavelength ratios of all intervals. And even after all of that, harmonic beauty is a mystery to me.

It is totally arbitrary that a perfect fifth should sound any more pleasing than a minor second.

The science you point to rests on the assumption that certain tones sound better. The pleasing sound is taken for granted.

It is pure bias.

I still believe it's not personal bias tho. There are smells that relax the nervous system and there are smells that agitate the nervous system. Same with sounds. Same with colors. Same with geometry. Certain shapes have certain impact on how you feel regardless of your biases. Colors too. It's existencial. I couldn't explain the science behind it tho. 

Edited 21 hours ago by Salvijus

[RendHeaven]

2 minutes ago, vibv said:

The octave and fifth are the most simple whole number multiples of a base frequency, therefore sounding harmonic, no?

Correct, the general principle is: the smaller the whole number ratio, the more "pure" the interval.

So an octave is 1:2

a fifth is 2:3

a fourth is 3:4

etc.

These relationships are baked into every tone through the phenomenon of overtones.

This "purity" is subjectively reflected in the perceived pleasantness of these intervals.

Speaking strictly truthfully, we have sounds that we perceive as pleasant and pure, corresponding to clean mathematical ratios found in nature.

The pleasant map corresponds to the pleasant territory, and everyone is happy.

But you cannot extrapolate from there that the pleasantness is inherent, nor can you claim that you have discovered the causal origin of pleasantness, since it is perfectly conceivable that Consciousness can have different hardwiring with regards to preferential beauty.

The human is hardwired to appreciate the harmonic series. Music is a very human thing.

But it is bias. We humans are bias.

Truth is lack of bias.

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, RendHeaven said:

Truth is lack of bias

Truth is biased too. It reverberates like love and peace. And everything that revebarates not in accord with love and peace sounds like noise.

[Leo Gura]

What kind of music do aliens listen to?

Contemplate!

[gambler]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

What kind of music do aliens listen to?

Contemplate!

We would need to know their biology to figure that out? 

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

The human is hardwired to appreciate the harmonic series. Music is a very human thing.

Why do so many humans like such shitty music though???

[RendHeaven]

2 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

There are smells that relax the nervous system and there are smells that agitate the nervous system. Same with sounds. Same with colors. Same with geometry. Certain shapes have certain impact on how you feel regardless of your biases. Colors too. It's existencial.

I see where you're coming from, you do have a point.

The upshot of all of this is to not conflate that which pleases your human self with that which is true.

Sometimes there is overlap, sometimes there is not.

12 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

The fact remains the same, there is something inside of us that knows the interval of every sound and can tell if it's in tune or not without the use of mental analysis.

I once contemplated tonal harmony on psychedelics and I was completely baffled and floored when I realized that all combinations of sounds were equally beautiful. I directly tested this.

[Yimpa]

24 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

And even after all of that, harmonic beauty is a mystery to me.

Your signature says it all