Ceasefire deal reached between Israel and Hamas

[Twentyfirst]

1 minute ago, Lila9 said:

Their terror attacks proved to be futile for their mission. The more terror attacks they do the more defensive and violent Israel would become. So maybe this is the time to change a strategy. 
If you don’t live up to the standards you expect from others, then don’t be surprised if they do the same.
 

The same could be said in reverse. The more horrific Israel is the more desperate the Palestinians attacks are. And its time for Israel to change their strategy 

So they should do what from now on to get all their demands met? 

 

[zazen]

On 07/01/2025 at 3:21 PM, zazen said:

These kind of conversations need more nuance man. Things are being conflated and selectively picked, omitted or reduced. Islam isn't uniquely restrictive or violent - it does has more visibility because a quarter of the world’s population is Muslim. We also can't reduce religions to bumper sticker words as Nilsi pointed out. Theres plenty of calls for love and mercy in Islam, for example - In the name of Allah, the most merciful, the most compassionate (Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim) is often said. Anything can be twisted to be violent and oppressive - even secular ideologies or high sounding ones. Look how democracy and human rights / liberation has been weaponised by the West for their own interests across the world. Does that make democracy inherently evil? Or Christianity? Of course not. Both religions adapted to their times and circumstances and were shaped as much by politics and survival as by their spirituality.

Christianity has been used to morally justify crusades, inquisitions and later colonisation. I'm not going to reductively jump to demonise Christianity because of that. Buddhists have also been violent - look at Sri Lanka or Myanmar - but no one paints Buddhism as violent because there aren’t as many Buddhists to pin incidents on. The scale skews the perception. But violence is still being committed today by the West - at scale in the Middle East - what do we pin that on? Christianity? Probably not because Christian rhetoric isn't driving it. A more secular state is behind it - so what, does that mean secularism is now inherently violent? No - and that's the problem with conflating things.

Just look at homicide rates per 100'000 inhabitants. Malaysia's is 0.7, Indonesia is 0.3 - in the same region Cambodia is 1.8, VIetnam 1.5, Philippines 4 - which are non muslim countries. Majority Hindu India is 2.8.  In the Middle East - Iraq is 15, Afghanistan is 4 (both high mainly due to Western intervention and destabilisation so it’s an unfair comparison) Syria's is oddly low at 2. Egypt is much lower at 1.3 and Jordan which is in the same volatile region as Iraq is 1 - because it hasn't gone to or been involved in war.  Meanwhile over in Americas - Mexico is 24, Brazil 20 and US is a 5.7 (a developed non muslim country - the worlds superpower in fact). The point is - I can take these statistics and conflate that Christian nations have much higher homicide rates than muslims ones (except in the cases of war) and come to the conclusion that their respective religions or ideologies are inherently violent. (Source I used: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate)

But I won’t because we can't ignore environmental or economic factors. If Bhuddists lived in a geopolitically fractured Middle East facing colonization, invasions and warfare over resources - they may exhibit similar behaviours and resort to extremism far more often as a last resort. If Muslims lived in isolated regions like Bhutan or Thailand which are geographically hard to penetrate and thus be bothered by outside meddling or hostile actors - maybe they'd be blissing out too over there - in fact there are many Muslims in the South of Thailand bordering Malaysia who live happily side by side with Bhuddists.

Everyone can be deemed a hypocrite because humans are messy. Every faith has followers stumbling their way to growth. Thats why theres the idea of repentance in both Islam and Christianity. Also, why be selective about hypocrisy? Just look at the Western actions with regards to backing Israel as the most latest and blatant example of hypocrisy.

Bhuddist monks have hundreds of precepts on how to live every day life that would make Islam looks lax. Obviously the average Bhuddist doesn't follow them, they just have the 5 precepts / principles which align with Islam and Christianity also - no killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying or intoxicants. Are we going to say Christianity is restrictive because Jordan Peterson tells us to make our bed, bear our own cross and sacrifice for something higher? Faiths have their restrictions and guidelines.

The irony of the argument about development is that the very thing your criticising (Islam's rules and regulations) is what makes it more developed, not less. Similar to the argument against libertarianism - the fact we have complex societies that function, only do so because of the framework of rules and regulations, not because we live in a free for all society of anarchy.

Islam was religion made worldly - they developed a framework for governance , ethics and society - to buffer against the excesses of human nature, not to indulge it. A powerless religion like Christianity when it was born - could afford to preach nonviolence because it’s wasn't in the business of governing or surviving tribal warfare. Islam was born in a different context. Also, in a time and world of little to no rules or ethics , you would rather have rules and ethics around domains that are inescapable for humanity. Wars will always come and sexuality announces its arrival at the sight of the opposite sex - best we have rules and ethics around how to conduct human affairs than not. This isn’t some hippy commune being run, a civilization requires a framework.

A Islamic foundation for a society isn't a strait jacket for societal development - although ISIS would like to make it one. Only the minutest minority of Muslims are approaching Islam in the way ISIS do. If it were true that a sizable portion of Muslims follow Islam the way ISIS do, the world would be carnage - but it isn't because most muslims don't. It's not just about the text (Quran), but the context in how it was revealed, to whom and where. A Islamic foundation doesn't mean its inherently limiting - the Islamic Golden Age wasn't called golden because Muslims sat around feeling limited and oppressed by their foundations - because they still had flexibility in operating their societies with diversity and autonomy.

As for being the Quran being the word of God. A man who's had enlightenment experiences as say Leo - speaks to us in videos and on this forum - yet we discuss at length everything he says and shares. If Leo's ideas are discussed at length, what of God? Theres a whole field in Islam called Tafsir (explanation) where scholars go into explaining the Quran. Some things in the Quran are descriptive of the history at the time it was revealed, some things are prescriptive, and other things are broad principles like justice, compassion and kindness that are supposed to be adaptive to different times and contexts. Which is why there is no monolith in how Islam is practiced across the world - from Turkey to Malaysia.

Again, this highlights the problem of conflating cultural or imperial practices with religious teachings. Islam itself neither prescribes nor endorses the use of eunuchs or harems - in fact it caps polygamy to 4, and only in certain strict conditions and for specific reasons (war deeming there less men available to protect/provide for women etc). In Malaysia and Pakistan for example polygamy is permitted but men need permission from the first wife. In Tunisia its outright banned - again, emphasising that Islam isn't a monolith.

Harems arose from political and cultural contexts, not religious doctrine or prescription. In fact, Europe was one of the largest sources of eunuchs historically, as castration was not prohibited in Christian lands but was prohibited in Islamic lands according to sharia law. Thats why they would be sourced from Europe by rulers in Islamic empires.

The presence of queens in medieval Europe doesn’t reflect respect for women as a whole. Queenship was tied to aristocratic bloodlines and dynasties. In the backdrop witch burnings, keeping women illiterate and no property rights was the norm. Meanwhile, Islam drops into 7th century Arabia and says women can inherit property, get educated and run their own businesses.

 

On 09/01/2025 at 11:38 PM, zazen said:

Again, Islam doesn’t promote cousin marriage. Just like other points - it’s easy to conflate cultural or social norms with religion.

Religion may talk about things, but that’s different to promoting them or divinely mandating them. This happens with war and then Islam being conflated with violence. The same way the UN addressing modern day conflict at length - doesn’t make it violent - the Bhagavagita or the Quran addressing war in their own times and bringing ethical rules to something that seems inevitable to the human condition - doesn’t make them violent either.

It isn’t always that religion dictates culture as much as culture borrows religion’s authority to justify itself. It wasn’t Islam itself that cloaked women, it was the pre-Islamic norms already in place and existing in much of the world that did -even in the West. In fact it was a status symbol from women in Persia and Byzantine (non Muslim) that influenced Arabian women in Mecca to adopt it. Islam did call for modesty though - and this of course can have different interpretation. Cousin marriage was another norm even in Roman times until it became a solely elite arrangement in Medieval Europe. These norms being acknowledged by scripture is different to being promoted or required by it.

Muslim countries may be stagnant but this can’t simply be pinned on Islam itself (perhaps a rigid interpretation of it) - the Islamic golden age counters the view that it’s inherently stagnating. It’s more to do with other factors. We have to keep in mind that many Muslim countries have faced or are still facing intervention, wars, puppet dictators and sanctions. Those aren’t ideal conditions to develop well in - and building a colourful vibrant culture isn’t a priority until survival is handled.

It’s not that Islam feels heavy, but that these places have been heavily bombarded and are more in survival mode before anything else. That’s the real trauma in the air. As for Muslim cities being dull and gray - just look at Morocco, Isfahan or Istanbul. Architecture usually matches the environment too, so earthy colours sync better in the Middle East. We wouldn’t expect Mexican or Indian level colour in Scotland for example.

Interesting conversation you guys are having. I commented in another thread regarding some of these themes - Islam, stagnation and conflation. Ya’ll may find it interesting.

[Lila9]

9 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

The same could be said in reverse. The more horrific Israel is the more desperate the Palestinians attacks are. And its time for Israel to change their strategy 

So they should do what from now on to get all their demands met? 

 

Stop killing innocents. It is always a good start. 

[Twentyfirst]

9 minutes ago, zazen said:

 

Interesting conversation you guys are having. I commented in another thread regarding some of these themes - Islam, stagnation and conflation. Ya’ll may find it interesting.

Christians won't ever get it

Even though Islam is just the third book of judaism and christianity 

The Christians want Muslims to become atheistic materials scientists like them lol

[Twentyfirst]

1 minute ago, Lila9 said:

Stop killing innocents. It is always a good start. 

And then what? If they stop killing innocents, which is what this ceasefire is, how will they get all their demands met?

You don't actually have a plan do you? Your just talking to talk 

Edited 6 hours ago by Twentyfirst

[Raze]

2 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Stop killing innocents. It is always a good start. 

The last time the PA staged an attack was a decade ago. Yet israel has just seized more land and allow settlers and IDF to kill Palestinian civilians regularly. 

 

[Lila9]

1 minute ago, Twentyfirst said:

And then what? If they stop killing innocents, which is what this ceasefire is, how will they get all their demands met?

You don't actually have a plan do you? Your just talking to talk 

What are their demands? 

[Lila9]

1 minute ago, Raze said:

The last time the PA staged an attack was a decade ago. Yet israel has just seized more land and allow settlers and IDF to kill Palestinian civilians regularly. 

 

Yes but they are also not saints either. There are thousands attempts every year, coming from the WB to murder Israelis by terror attacks. There is a reason for all the checkpoints and the hyper vigilance from the Israeli side. We need two for this strange tango. 

[Golem]

3 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Stop killing innocents. It is always a good start. 

You’ll definitely get banned again. Lies and deflection are your bread and butter. You do realize everyone here knows what Hasbara is, right? Your graphomania reeks of it.

 

 

[Raze]

28 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Islam holds back Europe and Muslims there too imo. Look what happened in Sweden etc. (it’s not just right wing populism)

When Europeans were left to their own devices they caused genocidal colonialism, the Atlantic slave trade, the world wars and the holocaust. 

[Twentyfirst]

1 minute ago, Lila9 said:

What are their demands? 

Basic human rights. Do you really not know everything they are demanding? I can explain it but it's crazy you don't know. So how can you truly have empathy for the other side if you don't even listen to them

Im sorry your leaders lied to you so badly. They offered you protection. You know they can't truly always be there to protect you

They told you that they would eradicate Hamas. Instead they just blew up a bunch of kids and women

They told you that if the Palestinians stopped killing innocents then the 75 year conflict would end. When in reality they just don't want it to end

You have been responding to everything I wrote to you except one thing. When I asked you where your grandparents/parents were born in a different thread. I know your grandparents/parents were born in Europe

 

[Raze]

1 minute ago, Lila9 said:

Yes but they are also not saints either. There are thousands attempts every year, coming from the WB to murder Israelis by terror attacks. There is a reason for all the checkpoints and the hyper vigilance from the Israeli side. We need two for this strange tango. 

Wouldn’t be an issue if Israelis weren’t moving into the West Bank and seizing land that isn’t there’s. 

[Twentyfirst]

2 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Yes but they are also not saints either. There are thousands attempts every year, coming from the WB to murder Israelis by terror attacks. There is a reason for all the checkpoints and the hyper vigilance from the Israeli side. We need two for this strange tango. 

So if you were a Gazan you would stop killing innocents to get your demands met

What would you do if you were living in the West Bank? How would you get your demands met there

[Twentyfirst]

7 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Yes but they are also not saints either. There are thousands attempts every year, coming from the WB to murder Israelis by terror attacks. There is a reason for all the checkpoints and the hyper vigilance from the Israeli side. We need two for this strange tango. 

What about this? 

 

 

[PurpleTree]

5 minutes ago, Raze said:

When Europeans were left to their own devices they caused genocidal colonialism, the Atlantic slave trade, the world wars and the holocaust. 

Nice. Or remember the Arab Islamic slave trade? Oh wow allegedly there are still a ton of slaves in Muslim countries. 

 

[Raze]

5 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Nice. Or remember the Arab Islamic slave trade? Oh wow allegedly there are still a ton of slaves in Muslim countries. 

For example Libya used to have one of the highest living standards and lowest crime rates in Africa until NATO toppled the government and created a civil war, now it has open slavery.

Another example of how Europeans like you are holding back humanity. Next time there is a terror attack blame yourself for not giving up your nationalism. 

Edited 6 hours ago by Raze

[Twentyfirst]

3 minutes ago, Raze said:

For example Libya used to have one of the highest living standards and lowest crime rates in Africa until NATO toppled the government and created a civil war, now it has open slavery.

Another example of how Europeans like you are holding back humanity. Next time there is a terror attack blame yourself.

Lol yeah what have Europeans done for humanity? At least the Americans made iPhones (even though that uses slavery in the Congo and god knows what else) 

Europeans just look at Americans with all their wealth and innovation and cry out "at least we have health care" then they brag about how their ancestors a thousand years ago built the most amazing architecture even though they had nothing to do with it

Europeans are the boomers of the world  

[Raze]

I have nothing against Europeans. I’m just applying his own logic to him. Will he understand? Probably not.

Edited 6 hours ago by Raze

[Lila9]

3 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Basic human rights. Do you really not know everything they are demanding? I can explain it but it's crazy you don't know. So how can you truly have empathy for the other side if you don't even listen to them

 

They demand basic human rights from whom?

8 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Im sorry your leaders lied to you so badly. They offered you protection. You know they can't truly always be there to protect you

 

 

Yes, our leaders could have been lying. And their leaders told them all the truth? Difficult to believe.
 

17 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

 

They told you that they would eradicate Hamas. Instead they just blew up a bunch of kids and women

They told you that if the Palestinians stopped killing innocents then the 75 year conflict would end. When in reality they just don't want it to end

 

 

Source? 

13 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

You have been responding to everything I wrote to you except one thing. When I asked you where your grandparents/parents were born in a different thread. I know your grandparents/parents were born in Europe

Okey.

[Lila9]

21 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

So if you were a Gazan you would stop killing innocents to get your demands met

What would you do if you were living in the West Bank? How would you get your demands met there

Same. And try to replace the leadership. The leadership in the WB is corrupted. If you believe they care about Palestinians then I don’t know what else to say.