Ceasefire deal reached between Israel and Hamas

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Raze said:

It’s the opposite. Leftists like Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein argue the US controls israel for its benefit. Realists like John Mearsheimer argue israel controls the US for its benefit at the detriment of US interests. 

There's truth in both views because, as I said, nations scratch each others backs. It's an alignment of survival agendas. That's what all relationship is fundamentally about.

Don't forget that Israel is also a hedge against Iran.

Edited yesterday at 09:50 PM by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

4 minutes ago, gambler said:

Why did you incorrectly attribute this quote to me 

 

Mistakenly because I marked his message inside your message to him so it did it this way I will be more cautious to this next.

Edited yesterday at 09:49 PM by Nivsch

[Raze]

5 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

What is the next step? "Israel has created Isis"?

(To karmadhi)

Both 9/11 and Isis were indirect responses to Israel.

Secular Arab nationalism was gaining popularity until the Arab states lost the 1967 war, and it caused a rise of radical Islamist beliefs which later inspired extremists such as Osama Bin Laden

When Osama Bin Laden was 14 years old he would watch news reports of Israeli attacks on Palestinians crying, later he said he was inspired to attack the US towers based on Israel’s seige of Beirut in 1982. He said in his letter US support for Israel was a major motivation in attacking the U.S.

9/11 was used as a pretext for the US to attack Iraq, this was supported and encouraged by Netanyahu, the attack on Iraq left a vacuum for Al Queda to expand and ISIS later grew from that

Edited yesterday at 09:48 PM by Raze

[Raze]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There's truth in both views because, as I said, nations scratch each others backs. It's an alignment of survival agendas. That's what all relationship is fundamentally about.

Don't forget that Israel is also a hedge against Iran.

What reason does the US have to be enemies with Iran aside from Irans animosity towards Israel?

 

Edited yesterday at 09:54 PM by Raze

[Nivsch]

@Raze This is way too indirect. Not a honest accusation to my impression. In this way I can connect many countries to many things out of deterministic explanations. The responsibility of the attackers is always at the bottom of the list.

Edited yesterday at 09:54 PM by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Israel is a Western bastion and military base in the Middle East, a region of critical geopolitical importance.

Many countries in the region are USA allies including Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia.

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Israel shares intelligence on terrorism and Middle Eastern leaders

I feel like the whole region there is terrorism against the US is because of their support of Israel. If USA didnt support Israel like it does then USA would not be a target for terrorists. I do not see Jihadists attack Japan for example.

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Israel has many defense contractors and important technology companies.

 

Fair point.

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Many important and powerful Jewish tycoons in the USA have a fondness and loyalty for Israel, and they need to be placated.

 

I think this is 90% of the reason for the support. That is unacceptable national treason towards the USA and should not be supported. People holding Israeli passports for example should not become part of USA upper government positions. Example is Blinken who is Israeli citizen.

Edited yesterday at 09:59 PM by Karmadhi

[Leo Gura]

16 minutes ago, Raze said:

What reason does the US have to be enemies with Iran aside from Irans animosity towards Israel?

Dude, there is a very long history of animosity with Iran. I cannot recap it all for you here.

Iran took US hostages.

Iran seeks to dominate the region through proxies.

Iran proxies disrupt oil shipping lanes and oil fields.

Iran tries to make nukes.

Iran supplies arms to Russia.

Iran is a repressive theocracy.

Iran executes and imprisons pro-Western journalists.

Iran is hostile to Western capitalist interests.

Iran expropriated Western capital.

US overthrew Iranian leaders.

The list is endless.

I am not saying Iran bad, US good. I'm just saying why there is hostility.

Edited 23 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

9 minutes ago, Raze said:

What reason does the US have to be enemies with Iran aside from Irans animosity towards Israel?

 

Iran hates USA and sees them as greater Jihad.

The reason Iran hates Israel is because they see Israel as extension of the USA.

[Raze]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Dude, there is a very long history of animosity with Iran. I cannot recap it all for you here.

Iran took US hostages.

Iran seeks to dominate the region through proxies.

Iran tries to make nukes.

Iran is a repressive theocracy.

Iran is hostile to Western capitalist interests.

Iran expropriated Western capital.

US overthrew Iranian leaders.

The list is endless.

I am not saying Iran bad, US good. I'm just saying why there is hostility.

- Iran took hostages in response to the US challenging its revolution, and the US challenged the revolution because Iran started funding anti Israel groups

- Iran seeks to expand itself through proxies to defend itself against hostility from Israel and the US which reacts to that. The US and Israel try to surround Iran so it countered it by funding rebel groups to surround Israel and pester US troops.

- Iran offered to turn the Middle East into a nuclear weapon free zone and later signed a nuclear deal but the US blocked both because of pressure from israel

- Saudi Arabia is also a repressive theocracy and the U.S. is fine with it 

- Iran wants to interact with capitalist interests which is why it pursued deals to remove sanctions 

Edited 23 hours ago by Raze

[The Crocodile]

Oh, the new Iranian president apppointed some female cabinet members.

[Ulax]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

They only agreed to give the last of the hostages in phase 2 when all idf pull out of Gaza 

Yeah but they can just go back in again after they get the hostage back no?

[Lila9]

28 minutes ago, Raze said:

Secular Arab nationalism was gaining popularity until the Arab states lost the 1967 war, and it caused a rise of radical Islamist beliefs which later inspired extremists such as Osama Bin Laden

The rise of the Islamist movements was more of a response to Arab nationalism, secularity, and modernity, which they saw as failures, than a response to external Western forces. They wanted to bring Arabs closer to Islam because they believed this was what Arab society truly needed. Later, they became radicalized, but they didn’t start out radical.

They were radicalized because of Western influence, with the cooperation of leaders in the MD. Saudi Arabia leadership, for example, cooperated with the U.S. because it aligned with their own interests. Bin Laden saw this as a betrayal and a sign of corruption. He felt saddened and threatened because this Western influence represented the demise of his ideology and his vision of what the Middle East should look like.

 

 

Edited 23 hours ago by Lila9

[Raze]

1 minute ago, Lila9 said:

The rise of the Islamist movements was more of a response to Arab nationalism, secularity, and modernity, which they saw as failures, than a response to external Western forces. They wanted to bring Arabs closer to Islam because they believed this was what Arab society truly needed. Later, they became radicalized, but they didn’t start out radical.

 

They saw it as a failure because of how disastrous the 1967 war was for them 

Edited 23 hours ago by Raze

[zazen]

@Raze Iran challenges US global hegemony just as Russia and China do.

A superpower like the US doesn’t have existential threats - they have examples of defiance that are a threat to their global dominance.

Israel is definitely a factor that intensifies the animosity. But regardless, any nation that is important enough and independent enough to not subordinate its sovereignty to the West - comes in their cross hairs.

*

Another nuance is that it isn’t always about what a nation can do for another - because those making the moves aren’t always concerned with the nations they make those moves from. They are trans national elites operating from nations, but with no care for the interest of those nations, except their own.

Edited 23 hours ago by zazen

[AION]

If Israel magically disappeared Arabs would just find a new problem to focus on. They will focus on everything but the cause which is within. 
 

 

[Lila9]

21 minutes ago, Raze said:

They saw it as a failure because of how disastrous the 1967 war was for them 

Yes, but also because or even mainly because secularism irritated them: seeing women dressed more provocatively, men and women dating without getting married, the bars, pubs, and clubs, and the younger generation drinking, which is forbidden in Islam.

 

Edited 23 hours ago by Lila9

[Leo Gura]

Boobies irritate Allah the Almighty.

Edited 23 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Lila9]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Boobies irritate Allah the Almighty.

Another paradox to bear in mind. Only God will understand.

[Raze]

18 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Yes, but also because or even mainly because secularism irritated them: seeing women dressed more provocatively, men and women dating without getting married, the bars, pubs, and clubs, and the younger generation drinking, which is forbidden in Islam.

 

If that was mainly the reason it wouldn’t have happened in the first place.

Its like how in the US people voted out Trump but after inflation rose under Biden they voted Trump back in because many figured he may have been better all along.

The population was moving more secular but after a massive defeat and stagnant economic growth more of them decided the radicals may have been right after all.

Actually the same thing happened among Palestinians. They were one of the most secular groups in the Middle East. For decades their main armed resistance was a secular nationalist movement. When that failed more of them thought to give religious radicals like Hamas a chance.

Edited 23 hours ago by Raze

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Another paradox to bear in mind.

Oh, I will bear them in mind.