Higher vs Lower Perspectives/Mind

[Spiral Wizard]

@Leo Gura ‘truth is antithetical to human survival and social organization’ quote from your new post about why the lower mind is untruthful. 

I see your point and I’d like to offer a few potentially more expanded perspectives for consideration. It may be true that it is partly in conflict with survival depending on how narrowly you define it but not with human evolution and its fruition, which includes its annahilation (on various levels) through truth and also rebirth into greater consciousness. There is never just death. Death and Life are two sides of the same coin. 
I may be leaning myself far out of the window here but I’d dare to say that Truth & Love are actually the only non-things which can make social organisation more effective. Truth is more wholistic, inclusive, efficient, effective, and interconnected. It’s litterly the driving force of evolution. Tom Campbell from my big TOE also talkes about this a lot with his lower and high entropy model. It explains how Love litterly is higher organisation & integrated complexity. 
Of course, the ego thinks it makes something more effective through lying, corruption, exploitation, etc. BUT only in the short term from a very narrow perspective, which is not the truth, the truth is always the whole and that includes all consequences, including long term effects which is where truth wins, always. You also talked about this, explaining how over time the infinite balancing forces of the universe always balance each other out to perfection.

Lastly, contemplate that there actually is no higher and lower perspective AT ALL. What is actually closer to the truth (more accurate) is to say a contracted vs expanded perspective. Alternatively we may also use narrow/partial/naive vs inclusive/wholistic/wise but contracted vs expanded already (visually as well) shows that an expanded perspective includes the contracted one. It may sound like a word game but it’s not just a word game. High and low inevitably imply value judgements for most minds, which is why so many ego’s weaponize spiral dynamics and spirituallity as a whole. 

So I’d say deeming human survival and human organisation as ‘lower mind’ is an over generalization and not nuanced enough. People won’t be pointed to the Beauty and Love of integrated and relevant insight. It’s a missed chance to point to a truth you may not have fully embodied for yourself: Gentle, loving, and graceful living. This includes me as well, of course. Otherwise, you wouldn’t trigger me (no matter how subtle). I’m not a saint, at least, for the time being. But based on my experience contracted and expanded perspectives are much closer to the embodied truth I observe and live out. It’s obvious that resistance (to pain) = contraction = denial = ignoring = ignorance = naive = delusion = self deception = corruption = illusion = suffering = destruction = etc. all go hand in hand. Whereas awareness = relaxation = surrender = insight = energy = clarity = honesty = integrity = Unity = Love = integration = transformation = etc. also all go hand in hand or may be different facets of that one diamond. 
There’s a reason Ken Wilber has his model as an expanded circle, not stages which imply high and low. Generally, organic, interconnected, alive, growth & specifically expansion is how nature is. When looking at a tree trunk we can see one circle grows to include the next. Sure, a tree also grows tall but there are young trees who can grow tall quickly so you usually don’t determine the age or figuratively speaking ‘wisdom’ of a tree by its height but by its width/expanded circles. 

Pachamama by Beautiful Chorus lyrics excerpt: 

‘I wanna be free, be me

Be the only being that I see

Not to rise and not to fall

Be at one with love and all

There is no high, no low

There is nowhere else to go

Except inside within your heart

And be just who you are

Pachamama, I'm coming home

To the place where I belong’

https://open.spotify.com/track/2WRYbId2ZeaRvytazsQ6Vh?si=emFBEkjRSquoke1SdWf1Pg

 

Edited 11 hours ago by Spiral Wizard

[Leo Gura]

Your perspective overlooks the lies that undergird society. The purpose of my quote was to point that out, since everyone misses it.

It takes a lot of work just to see how untruthful society is, and deliberately so.

This talk of love and gentle living is not how society works.

Edited 11 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Terell Kirby]

@Leo Gura the quote was deep, controversial, but deep nonetheless. It will take me a few weeks to contemplate it.

I find myself becoming fearful whilst waking up to deeper corruptions within conventional social systems that ground society. Like, how am I supposed to even live a “human” life knowing corruption is at every turn? It’s not Iike I can unimagine my human-ness (deeper than that, I AM the one imagining it.)

The saying ‘Ignorance is bliss’ couldn’t be more truer for me now. But I have faith/intuition that there are higher forms of bliss to discover on this journey, fully embracing varying degrees of existential crisis along the way is imperative at this point.

 

[Leo Gura]

28 minutes ago, Terell Kirby said:

Like, how am I supposed to even live a “human” life knowing corruption is at every turn?

That's the point. The corruption is so deep that just understanding it is terrifying and impractical. Which is why no one has a clue and why society is in the state it's in.

When you really understand how the sauage is made, it's horrifying and there is no magic cure.

Edited 10 hours ago by Leo Gura

[UnbornTao]

That's it -- I'm moving to Shangri-La.

[Yimpa]

6 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

That's it -- I'm moving to Shangri-La.

“A Tibetan utopia in James Hilton's novel Lost Horizon (1933).”

Wow, that was written during the Great Depression!

Edited 9 hours ago by Yimpa

[cetus]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

That's the point. The corruption is so deep that just understanding it is terrifying and impractical. Which is why no one has a clue and why society is in the state it's in.

Just yesterday my cuz was saying how corrupt society is and he's been finding solace in religion. The last time I saw him he was wearing a religious cross. And just to mention he's a true Trumpite. So of course he's totally against any and all border crossing. So, I was wondering what his Jesus would have to say about borders if he could ask him to his face. Probably something like this: "Borders? Show me where God has created borders".  That's just one example of how much world society would need to evolve to survive. And as of right now that does sound totally impractical to most of society. 

Edited 8 hours ago by cetus

[gengar]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

That's the point. The corruption is so deep that just understanding it is terrifying and impractical. Which is why no one has a clue and why society is in the state it's in.

When you really understand how the sauage is made, it's horrifying and there is no magic cure.

If your body is up for it, ascend to occult levels of consciousness and you'll be able to grok and maneuver in it. Not that I would be able, my body can't contain it. If you can however, you can alter your consciousness to be pharaoh-like and grok the corruption and darkness of the world. It requires ego death and  deep acceptance of suffering though. Only pharaohs can realize the truth of the world and still live. Puny humans cant. 

Do mushroom trips and enter occult versions of yourself in your inner being. Imprint those states into memory and use kriya/kundalini yoga to move into them as much as possible when sober until your baseline changes.

Still ofc much depends on your body. I'd say the nervous system is pretty maleable to your mind, since mind can control energy, but of course mechanical and chemical parts are not. Mechanical and chemical issues with the body are almost always unfixable with mental stuff. There might have been alchemists in the world who have healed some stuff but i even doubt that. Mechanical and chemical parts are simply too strong and real to be altered with imagination.

[The Crocodile]

8 minutes ago, gengar said:

If your body is up for it, ascend to occult levels of consciousness and you'll be able to grok and maneuver in it. Not that I would be able, my body can't contain it. If you can however, you can alter your consciousness to be pharaoh-like and grok the corruption and darkness of the world. It requires ego death and  deep acceptance of suffering though. Only pharaohs can realize the truth of the world and still live. Puny humans cant. 

Do mushroom trips and enter occult versions of yourself in your inner being. Imprint those states into memory and use kriya/kundalini yoga to move into them as much as possible when sober until your baseline changes.

Still ofc much depends on your body. I'd say the nervous system is pretty maleable to your mind, since mind can control energy, but of course mechanical and chemical parts are not. Mechanical and chemical issues with the body are almost always unfixable with mental stuff. There might have been alchemists in the world who have healed some stuff but i even doubt that. Mechanical and chemical parts are simply too strong and real to be altered with imagination.

Leo's body can't handle psychedelics or pranayama, so he is basically screwed as far as your "pharaoh" thing and physically tangible superpowers.

Also healing is literally just a real thing. And it's not just "imagination" or the mind, or if it is it's merged with other parts of the being.

Leo's best bet though for being a wizard is direct consciousness of spirit, ceremonial magic visualization BS, and even he's up for it and stops being lazy, fire kasina. Also he could finally watch Joker and become a superhero.

[Terell Kirby]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The corruption is so deep that just understanding it is terrifying and impractical.

The series on Low vs. High perspective will go down in the Actualized history book--it's so profound, it's been life changing / paradigm shattering just with two days of contemplating the criteria as homework.

Glad I found this thing, 

Edited 7 hours ago by Terell Kirby

[gengar]

11 minutes ago, The Crocodile said:

Leo's body can't handle psychedelics or pranayama, so he is basically screwed as far as your "pharaoh" thing and physically tangible superpowers.

Also healing is literally just a real thing. And it's not just "imagination" or the mind, or if it is it's merged with other parts of the being.

Leo's best bet though for being a wizard is direct consciousness of spirit, ceremonial magic visualization BS, and even he's up for it and stops being lazy, fire kasina. Also he could finally watch Joker and become a superhero.

It is imagination because all is mind. Mechanical and chemical things are just too hardcore to change with our limited imagination. With nervous system stuff less so.

Its not about literal pharaohs, i use that term to denote super human states that are able to handle horrors and emotions a lot more than humans and simply are a lot more conscious, and are extremely intelligent.

I doubt your far fetched claims that magic healing is so easy to do. If it was it would be well known by now. And if you can really do it i invite you to help me because i have a lot of issues.

Edited 7 hours ago by gengar

[Leo Gura]

18 minutes ago, Terell Kirby said:

The series on Low vs. High perspective will go down in the Actualized history book--it's so profound, it's been life changing / paradigm shattering just with two days of contemplating the criteria as homework.

Glad I found this thing, 

It's good that you're taking it seriously.

[gengar]

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's good that you're taking it seriously.

Question on that video: you mentioned as an argument for why demonization of others is always a lower perspective, that there simply are no demons so demonization is always false. This seems to me as an ungrounded argument, you dont actually argue why it is true that there are no demons. This is a much deeper point than you make out to be. If reality is like you describe it (and i would agree, that all is mind), there are definately demons and evil, and the mind contains a pandoras box of evil. Evil and suffering is a great reality, and many christians would argue that the existence of evil is what causes them to believe in their religion and thus demonize "evil". You can say its only relative, but if all there is is experience, an experience of evil is truly evil, since there is nothing outside of it. Your point that all evil is actually good, including all forms of suffering and horror, you make that point like its a simple truth, but most people would not accept that point, that there is no difference in moral quality between a knife in the gut and a hug from your mom. It's even less so in an "all is mind" paradigm than a materialistic paradigm, because a person like Neil Degrasse Tyson, could argue that both the stab wound and the hug are both simply materialistic states that have no inherent moral difference, but if all is experience, their difference would actually become real, simce their opposing qualities (horrible pain vs good feeling) are actual things in experience and experience is the ultimate reality. 

You can never convince a Christian that evil is not real because of this radical implication. And if God is real and good and evil are also real, demonizing evil actually becomes a good position to take. 

 

Edited 7 hours ago by gengar

[Terell Kirby]

3 minutes ago, gengar said:

You can never convince a Christian that evil is not real

More like you can never convince a Christian that Christianity is evil.

This would be the path towards God.

[Jayson G]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That's the point. The corruption is so deep that just understanding it is terrifying and impractical. Which is why no one has a clue and why society is in the state it's in.

When you really understand how the sauage is made, it's horrifying and there is no magic cure.

@Leo Gura I don't know how to properly word this, but I am curious .. if there really is that much corruption at every turn then how does that correlate to aspects of consciousness like beauty, love, beautiful art, etc. ? Like okay I get consciousness itself from an absolute level is "perfect", but just on a human level there's beauty all around us right? The ability to connect with nature, seeing love in various scenarios, the good things humans do for each other, sacrifice, etc. Isn't it just like there's good and bad in humans, and one way of life is to just embody more goodness? 

I'm excluding messy corporations, and organizations and society from what I'm asking, I guess just looking at "normal" individuals. What I'm mainly trying to ask is, are normal individuals really that corrupt? and is that so bad if there's both good and bad in normal individuals? We can also choose to do a lot of good for the world through our life purpose, which can create a net positive in our sort of "good-bad footprint" on the world .. do you think that's the case as well?

[Leo Gura]

51 minutes ago, gengar said:

Question on that video: you mentioned as an argument for why demonization of others is always a lower perspective, that there simply are no demons so demonization is always false. This seems to me as an ungrounded argument, you dont actually argue why it is true that there are no demons. This is a much deeper point than you make out to be. If reality is like you describe it (and i would agree, that all is mind), there are definately demons and evil, and the mind contains a pandoras box of evil.

I should have been more clear. Demons can exist, but even a demon is not bad or evil. A demon is a figment of consciousness just like anything else. A demon is a child of God. So who are you to judge?

Quote

 demonizing evil actually becomes a good position to take.

It's stupid, because everything is ONE.

Demonization is a violation of ONENESS and is an insult to the beauty of demons.

By demonizing things the mind creates division and sickness within itself.

That's why Christians are sick minds.

Edited 6 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

37 minutes ago, Jayson G said:

@Leo Gura What I'm mainly trying to ask is, are normal individuals really that corrupt?

Of course normal individuals are that corrupt. That's the whole point.

Quote

and is that so bad if there's both good and bad in normal individuals?

Strictly speaking corruption is not good or bad, it just is.

But you yourself will perceive it as bad if a corrupt cop rapes your daughter during a traffic stop and then lies about it.

Quote

We can also choose to do a lot of good for the world through our life purpose, which can create a net positive

Yes, but if you are corrupt then your notion of good and bad will also be corrupt, so it will be hard to create that net positive footprint.

See Elon Musk for a perfect example. He honestly believes that he's not corrupt and that he's creating a net positive for the world, even though he is the epitome of corruption.

The point of doing this work we do -- of understanding corruption -- is that it's necessary to truly do good. Otherwise you become a mini Elon Musk.

Being good is harder than it seems. Which is why we do this work. To be good you must escape self-deception.

Edited 6 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Buck Edwards]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

See Elon Musk for a perfect example. He honestly believes that he's not corrupt and that he's creative a net positive for the world, even though he is the epitome of corruption.

What's wrong if his work ends up being a net positive to the world? 

Some people care more about the outcome than the means to that outcome. It's a lower perspective yes. But lower perspective is necessary for survival?? 

How can you expect humanity to be utterly high consciousness when even lower needs on the Maslows Hierarchy are not met? 

 

Edited 6 hours ago by Buck Edwards

[Leo Gura]

13 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

What's wrong if his work ends up being a net positive to the world? 

What's wrong with oligarchy and kleptocracy?

You wanna live in Putin's Russia?

Quote

Some people care more about the outcome than the means to that outcome.

People are myopic, not thinking through the long-term consequences of their actions and decisions. They take a short-term gain at long-term loss.

Quote

How can you expect humanity to be utterly high consciousness when even lower needs on the Maslows Hierarchy are not met?

I expect humanity to be corrupt pigs.

Edited 6 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Inliytened1]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course normal individuals are that corrupt. That's the whole point.

Strictly speaking corruption is not good or bad, it just is.

But you yourself will perceive it as bad if a corrupt cop rapes your daughter during a traffic stop and then lies about it.

Yes, but if you are corrupt then your notion of good and bad will also be corrupt, so it will be hard to create that net positive footprint.

See Elon Musk for a perfect example. He honestly believes that he's not corrupt and that he's creating a net positive for the world, even though he is the epitome of corruption.

The point of doing this work we do -- of understanding corruption -- is that it's necessary to truly do good. Otherwise you become a mini Elon Musk.

Being good is harder than it seems. Which is why we do this work. To be good you must escape self-deception.

What you really need to start teaching is that survival must incorporate corruption to some degree.  But then the definition of corruption becomes relative.   What is corruption? You tell me first and then i can tell you if we all must fall into it.  Because I already know that you can't escape a certain degree of corruption.  Your innocence is assaulted on birth.  After that you will be tainted.  After that it comes down to what degree you are corrupt.

  

Edited 6 hours ago by Inliytened1