China (economy, society, politics, relations to other nations etc.)

[PurpleTree]

5 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Ah yes, the people who get their news from twitter-propagandists.

Yea that’s why i have him on my beautiful ignore list. Once in a while i look at a post but it’s usually some lame propaganda.

[zazen]

@PurpleTree You have many people on ignore and love to boast about it lol. It’s just a different opinion or set of facts that maybe counters your narrative. The world’s changing fast, best to keep open minded.

You opened a thread saying anyone can post negative neutral or positive info on China. On the previous page I literally said on the China economy point - that’s it’s probably not as good as China says but not as bad as the West says it is.
 

Check out Sirius report or Arnaud Bertrand on X. Good sources on China. Speaking of the devil, a new vid on China advancing in submarine military tech just dropped:

News: 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/12/china-mystery-nuclear-battery-submarine-taiwan-war-us-navy/

https://asiatimes.com/2025/02/chinas-magnetic-tech-can-detect-us-stealth-subs-study/#

“China, have unveiled a novel detection method capable of identifying even the stealthiest submarines by tracking their magnetic wakes.”

Just as US is dislodging from Europe / Russia so they can focus their attention on the Pacific against China.

[PurpleTree]

2 hours ago, zazen said:

@PurpleTree You have many people on ignore and love to boast about it lol. It’s just a different opinion or set of facts that maybe counters your narrative. The world’s changing fast, best to keep open minded.

You opened a thread saying anyone can post negative neutral or positive info on China. On the previous page I literally said on the China economy point - that’s it’s probably not as good as China says but not as bad as the West says it is.
 

Check out Sirius report or Arnaud Bertrand on X. Good sources on China. Speaking of the devil, a new vid on China advancing in submarine military tech just dropped:

News: 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/12/china-mystery-nuclear-battery-submarine-taiwan-war-us-navy/

https://asiatimes.com/2025/02/chinas-magnetic-tech-can-detect-us-stealth-subs-study/#

“China, have unveiled a novel detection method capable of identifying even the stealthiest submarines by tracking their magnetic wakes.”

Just as US is dislodging from Europe / Russia so they can focus their attention on the Pacific against China.

Yea i love the ignore list. It‘s one of the best things about this forum. You are free to post whatever you want. But i‘m free to ignore and read whatever i want. You say we should be open minded. While you are also just very one sided. Usually just boring anti west narratives without mentioning the issues/atrocities/clamping down of freedom for example in China.

 

[zazen]

You say I'm one sided while block listing everyone who disagrees with you and makes you challenge your own worldview bro. I literally said China aren't economically as good as they say they are, but not as bad as the West say they are - how is that one sided? Enjoy echo chambering yourself into a bubble and being detached from reality. I commented in the Ukraine thread to explain why it comes across like people are anti-Western, even if they aren't. Simply because there is more to criticise.

20 hours ago, zazen said:

@PurpleTree @Scholar @Lyubov  You guys view comments from myself, Raze or Hatfort above and conclude we are anti-West for the sake of it. I think this is mistaking focus for bias, and clarity for having some anti-West agenda. Maybe the reason the West gets critiqued more is because it does more criticizable things? At a scale incomparable to others.

The Western centric view wants people outraged about headscarves in Iran while the countries surrounding Iran are reduced to moonscapes by the West. They want you crying about artistic suppression in China - which, in reality is China refusing to let foreign backed protest movements destabilize its governance - while they turn a blind eye to ethnic cleansing in Gaza.

Theres a reason why the threads on this forum regarding the Ukraine/Russia war or Israel get the most engagement - because in the grand hierarchy of global destabilisation, death and destruction - these pose the most risk and are the most vile. The reason for frequent comments criticizing the West and in particular the US, is because of the frequency of violations and the fact that the US is behind the worst of them.

You yourselves are now bemoaning how the US is now treating Europe. As Kissinger said ''“To be an enemy of America can be dangerous, but to be a friend is fatal.”

Westerners, especially Europeans, are being force fed a civilisational and geopolitical red pill through the red blood of their own people in Ukraine. The war has laid bare the reality of their existence: that they aren't independent nations, but vassals propping up US hegemony. 

Anyone pointing out the empire's tendency to feed its "allies" into the wood chipper gets dismissed as an "America hater" or "Russian bot." Now we're watching  european economies implode while Washington whistles all the way to the bank. Apparently, focusing on the empire that has 800+ military bases, turns nations into failed states and treats sanctions like party favours means you're "obsessed." Some of us can't help noticing that one player is responsible for more global chaos than all others combined. 

And now Europe's getting that "special friend" treatment previously reserved for the Global South. Their leaders are learning what leaders in the Middle East and Latin America have known for decades: the empire doesn't have allies, only useful idiots. This challenges our worldview about our own ''Western civilisation” and the lofty sounding rhetoric we were made to believe about it.

The Cold war with Russia is ending, but the awakening from the splash of cold water waking us up from our propagandized existence has just begun.

 

[zazen]

Comments are telling of a vibe:

 

 

Aussie think tank: https://www.aspi.org.au/report/critical-technology-tracker

“ Our research reveals that China has built the foundations to position itself as the world’s leading science and technology superpower, by establishing a sometimes stunning lead in high-impact research across the majority of critical and emerging technology domains.

China’s global lead extends to 37 out of 44 technologies that ASPI is now tracking, covering a range of crucial technology fields spanning defence, space, robotics, energy, the environment, biotechnology, artificial intelligence (AI), advanced materials and key quantum technology areas.1 The Critical Technology Tracker shows that, for some technologies, all of the world’s top 10 leading research institutions are based in China and are collectively generating nine times more high-impact research papers than the second-ranked country (most often the US). “

Edited March 18 by zazen

[PurpleTree]

 

[zazen]

It’s not “do nothing, win” it’s “do nothing stupid, win” - Zazen the great.

Edited Friday at 09:17 AM by zazen

[PurpleTree]

11 minutes ago, zazen said:

It’s not “do nothing, win” it’s “do nothing stupid, win” - Zazen the great.

Are you Chinese?

[zazen]

@PurpleTree  Nah bro, European / Asian, UK born. Think that’s helped me not be identified with any one nation / region.

Can understand East / West and Middle East too as one side is Muslim. Going to international school, having friends from everywhere and travelling has helped too.

[PurpleTree]

34 minutes ago, zazen said:

has helped too.

What do you mean with „helped“?

For understanding everyone i guess. But defending the CCP sometimes can be a little bit like defending an authoritarian fascist hell thing. Don’t you wish freedom in art and freedom in expression etc. for Chinese. Chinese artists were jailed and had to flee or worse because the CCP doesn’t understand art. I know many Tibetans who had to flee this cancerous authoritarian bull crap regime.They are like the nazis burning books. What do you like so much about Winnie the Pootler? 

Edited Friday at 11:01 AM by PurpleTree
Because i can. Yes we can.

[zazen]

Yeah, helped in understanding different sides, though I'm not claiming perfection. I don't care to defend China, but I can understand where they are coming from. I think having a distinction around the concept of freedom helps understanding eastern cultures:

On 17/03/2025 at 6:26 PM, zazen said:

On the point of freedom, perhaps we need distinctions to clarify that not all freedoms are equal - freedoms exist in relation to one another and some require constraint, in order for more essential and fundamental freedoms to exists.

What good are human rights, if a human can’t exist to enjoy them? Because we didn’t care enough about stability or national security ie survival.

The essential human right /  freedom, is to exist in the first place to experience further rights / freedoms.

- Existential freedoms = essential (ones required for survival, stability, security)

- Fundamental freedoms = fairness (f aor just society with equality in front of the law)

- Important freedoms = valuable but secondary (enhances life but isn’t crucial, like consumer choices or artful expression)

Existential freedom enables life to exist, fundamental freedoms creates fairness in life, important freedoms enhance life. Enabling life to exist, is the pre-condition to having other freedoms that enhance the conditions of life.

The problem in the West is that we mistake important freedoms for existential ones. When other groups or nations act to secure their existential freedom, we take it as an assault on our existential freedom even when it isn’t. It simply threatens our influence, empire, or identity of exceptionalism and universalism.

As we’re talking about China here’s the example: 

When China fortifies its own waters, securing its national security against a hostile US, it’s China that is labelled a existential threat to the US which is all the way on the other side of the planet..whilst its the US in the South China Sea. China is the one protecting their existential freedom (national security) while the US is just defending an important freedom (global navigation and influence).

The abstraction of rules and laws (fundamental freedoms providing justice) doesn’t negate the reality of survival and security (existential freedoms) which causes one to break those abstractions in the first place.

I think artful expression is great and important, but I can understand that when you have subversive elements who hijack artists to stoke internal instability - clampdowns are required. It’s a tough line to balance. Also, it’s easy to conflate centralized power structure as authoritarian - when it’s simply a different way of organizing a society. Right now, many Americans wished they had more state intervention to check the excesses of corporate and oligarchic power - yet when China does this it's deemed dystopian.

Edited Friday at 04:42 PM by zazen

[Lyubov]

I’ve been to China and as a foreigner I found it incredibly interesting. I think living there is very different. There’s a lot of people who really don’t take the time to understand China. I can also tell you that the USA has lost a ton of credibility and integrity with its criticisms of China considering who is president now. We are just economic competitors and we are intertwined as well so there is no getting rid of the other. 

[Husseinisdoingfine]

The number one burning question I've always had of China, is its Communist Party, and their ideology. They liberalized because they didn't have the productive capacity to enact proper socialism as China before the revolution was feudal and agricultural. But do they actually have a plan to achieve socialism?

From what I can infer, the CPC has no intentions of communal and employee ownership of the means of production, because by their definition of socialist, they already are socialist, with Chinese characteristics, of course.

Current Chinese policy is about "perfecting" and "deepening" the policies they have already implemented. This means more markets, more private ownership and more export of capital. Central planning has long ceased to exist and has been replaced by a system where the market is "decisive" (not the only force, but by the CPC's own admission "decisive"). CPC members don't see China ever becoming socialist because by their own definition it already IS socialist. They don't see themselves as passing through a retreat like the Soviets did with the NEP, they consider the current system to be a superior socialist system to the central planning they previously practiced. In the minds of CPC members, all they need to do is keep "developing" and they are set.

But don't blame Xi for this. All he is doing is continuing a process that Deng Xiaoping set into motion and every General Secretary since has followed. It was Deng who set off on the "Southern Tour" that kickstarted further marketisation reforms when they stalled after causing economic and social crisis. It was Jiang Zemin who declared the "Socialist Market Economy" and unleashed the firesale of public assets in the 90's. It was Hu Jintao who started the "stablity maintanence" and "harmonious society" programs that now make it impossible for Marxists in China to criticise Opening and Reform.

The mid to long term goal of the CPC is embodied in the "Centenary Goals". By 2050 China is supposed to have become a "strong, democratic, civilized, harmonious, and modern socialist country". Based on what those terms mean in China today and their silence on exploitation, I personally don't think the CPC has any intention of droping market forces, exploitation or private ownership within our lifetimes, if ever.

 

 

Edited Friday at 05:35 PM by Husseinisdoingfine

[PurpleTree]

9 minutes ago, Lyubov said:

I’ve been to China and as a foreigner I found it incredibly interesting. I think living there is very different. There’s a lot of people who really don’t take the time to understand China. I can also tell you that the USA has lost a ton of credibility and integrity with its criticisms of China considering who is president now. We are just economic competitors and we are intertwined as well so there is no getting rid of the other. 

Well America sucks too but at least they have freedom in art and such. I‘m not saying China is bad or whatever. But with this „people just don’t really understand China“ you could say the same about Nazis or Islamists or whatever.

[Pox]

On 4/4/2025 at 6:44 AM, PurpleTree said:

What do you mean with „helped“?

For understanding everyone i guess. But defending the CCP sometimes can be a little bit like defending an authoritarian fascist hell thing. Don’t you wish freedom in art and freedom in expression etc. for Chinese. Chinese artists were jailed and had to flee or worse because the CCP doesn’t understand art. I know many Tibetans who had to flee this cancerous authoritarian bull crap regime.They are like the nazis burning books. What do you like so much about Winnie the Pootler? 

As a chinese person born in china, thank you so much for saying that, this recent surge of chinese soft power is really getting on my nerves...

[Pox]

On 1/15/2025 at 2:05 PM, Eskilon said:

 

why do yall fall for the most obvious propaganda? go look at his channel

[Pox]

On 2/6/2025 at 5:36 AM, PurpleTree said:

Some say Chinese economy is great.

Some say it’s doing really bad.

I wonder what’s true.

 

I know people that's currently living there and they literally told me that it's bad, stop this uncertainty please, I hate this stupid postmodernist effect

[PurpleTree]

7 hours ago, Pox said:

As a chinese person born in china, thank you so much for saying that, this recent surge of chinese soft power is really getting on my nerves...

Imagine what cool art, movies, ideas etc. could come out of China if there was more freedom.

[Husseinisdoingfine]

So I did some research, and this idea that China has completely abandoned socialist ideals turned out to be wrong. The National People's Congress has passed laws supporting the creation of several workers coops.

https://socialistchina.org/2024/05/08/cooperatives-in-china-current-status-and-prospects-for-significant-growth/

Quote

Recent figures indicate that China has over 2 million agricultural cooperatives, engaging nearly 100 million households. These entities are key to the agricultural sector, delivering services that elevate productivity and expand market access. The Chinese leadership has made exceptional efforts to nurture these cooperatives, advocating for the adoption of cutting-edge technology and sustainable farming practices. It is essential to note that China sustains almost a fifth of the global population on a mere 9% of the world’s arable land. Therefore, enhancing farmer incomes and technological integration through agricultural cooperatives is key to meeting these demands. President Xi Jinping has underscored the significance of steering small-scale farmers towards modern agriculture to safeguard food security, a move he deems foundational for the nation’s modern socialist aspirations.

https://sacu.org/cooperatives

Quote

After careful study of Chinese and international experience in 2006 the Law on Specialized Farmer Cooperatives was passed by the National People’s Congress, coming into effect on July 1 2007. This was the first time since the establishment of the People’s Republic of China in 1949 that cooperatives were given a legal identity.

 

https://www.thinkchina.sg/economy/cooperatives-are-making-comeback-china-preparing-combat-and-famine

https://www2.fundsforngos.org/donor-agencies/chinas-thriving-co-op-movement/

 

 

 

The articles above are definitely worth the read. But this idea I had, and so did many on the left in the western world, that China was socialist in name only, turned out to be incorrect.

https://www.reddit.com/r/communism/comments/ehzwv3/china_after_2050_be_patient/

[Husseinisdoingfine]