Critique My Idea For A Eugenic State

[Juns]

Just now, The Crocodile said:

Is your post supposed to be an example of that?

come on man. Why do you have to engage with me in this type of way. I'm not trying to act smarter than you in anyway. I put critique in the title of this post for a reason. I want different views to see if this idea makes sense or not. I am well aware that I am very ignorant and lack intelligence in many ways. 

[The Crocodile]

6 minutes ago, Juns said:

come on man. Why do you have to engage with me in this type of way. I'm not trying to act smarter than you in anyway. I put critique in the title of this post for a reason. I want different views to see if this idea makes sense or not. I am well aware that I am very ignorant and lack intelligence in many ways. 

YES, people should want humans to be beautiful, intelligent, competent, spiritual, creative with lots of positive abilities and qualities.

It should happen naturally as humans and society and evolve,

not through fascism and top-down government control.

[Juns]

3 hours ago, Juns said:

Do you agree that humans are animals? Do you believe that evolution and natural selection are a thing? Do you not believe that humans developed intelligence because the more intelligent survived and the less intelligent died? What do you think will happen to a society where the more intelligent have fewer children and less intelligent people have more? I’m pretty sure that you have an intuitive understanding of what I mean about genetic intelligence.

@The Crocodile

Fascism is a specific term. 

top down government control is needed in some things where it will lead to more wellbeing and those other things that I mentioned earlier. 

Edited Saturday at 06:11 PM by Juns

[Leo Gura]

The biggest problem is that you are not considering how badly this scheme could backfire. You assume intelligence is a singular well-defined and quantifiable thing, but in practice it isn't. There are many different kinds and a healthy society needs that diversity, otherwise you will breed a race of people who all think in the same way and have the same blindspots and weaknesses. Your simplistic IQ test will screen out many great and talented people and include many immoral and egoticstical people. And in practice administrating this would be a nightmare. It's needlessly coersive.

Soceity needs many people who are not too intelligent to do basic manual work.

Remember, most people are not too intelligent so they will fight back and rebel against your coersion of them by "elites". That's already happening now. Imagine how bad it would get if you threatened to sterilize all the MAGA.

Screwing with the genetic diversity of the human species could backfire badly in ways you cannot foresee because you don't understand the insane complexity of genetic ecology.

Edited Saturday at 06:39 PM by Leo Gura

[The Crocodile]

8 minutes ago, Juns said:

Fascism is a specific term. 

That applies perfectly fine to the system described here.

Quote

top down government control is needed in some things where it will lead to more wellbeing and those other things that I mentioned earlier. 

I know you already that.

Now read what I said with the knowledge that I knew you already said that.

[yetineti]

@Juns

Have you considered where this need for control comes from? 

 

 

[Juns]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The biggest problem is that you are not considering how badly this scheme could backfire. You assume intelligence is a singular well-defined and quantifiable thing, but in practice it isn't. There are many different kinds and a healthy society needs that diversity, otherwise you will breed a race of people who all think in the same way and have the same blindspots and weaknesses. Your simplistic IQ test will screen out many great and talented people and include many immoral and egoticstical people. And in practice administrating this would be a nightmare. It's needlessly coersive.

Also, soceity needs many people who are not too intelligent to do basic manual work.

And remember, most people are not too intelligent so they will fight back and rebel against your coersion of them by "elites". That's already happening now. Imagine how bad it would get if you threatened to sterilize all the MAGA.

@Leo Gura

I understand that it could backfire and not work out but as I have said before what are other solutions for solving the problems of dysgenics and the decreasing intelligence of society. I think we need a society to try this out to see if it works. I like the analogy of local and global maxima used in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p11-oggW1E&pp=ygUqbGliZXJhbHMgdnMgY29uc2V2aWF0ZSBjb21wdXRlciBzaW11bGF0aW9u. I see this idea as an attempt to find the global maximum by going in a different direction.

" Yes, of course, intelligence is multifaceted. However, there is a g factor (general intelligence), and many tests and metrics can be used to try and get a close approximation of it. I know these measures aren't 100% perfect, and I myself don't know too much about all the possible ways of testing for intelligence, but this is something that must be looked into, as dysgenics and the societal decrease in intelligence are serious problems that need to be addressed.

I agree that there are many other important traits needed for a society to flourish, such as conscientiousness, EQ, etc. But, to be frank, intelligence is the main thing that's needed. These other traits are also important and should be looked into too, but I used cognitive intelligence as the example above because it is the most important. Cognitive development is closely linked to intelligence, too, I would say. To move up the stages in Spiral Dynamics, you, of course, need changes in emotions and psychology, but you also need to be cognitively intelligent to properly understand the different stages (yellow). If you want to be scientifically minded and rational (orange), intelligence plays a crucial role.

Of course, high IQ/intelligence doesn't necessarily mean good morals or wisdom; however, it's a necessary but not sufficient condition for a prosperous society. Low intelligence people singing "Kumbaya" won't build a great, prosperous society, even though they may be morally great people. Both are needed, but I think intelligence is much more important, as humans are generally moral by nature, and more intelligent societies tend to be more prosocial. "

I don't think that selecting for intelligence will necessarily make people think in the same way. General intelligence is exactly that—general—and can be used for many things. I can kind of see what you mean in the sense that you may root out creativity and other forms of intelligence, like physical, etc., but these can also be looked into and selected for if they are useful. The main point is that something needs to be done and that not doing anything is leading to negative consequences, so this could be a solution.
 

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Also, soceity needs many people who are not too intelligent to do basic manual work.

A society of really intelligent people should be able to automate basic manual work as much as possible and what ever is left could be done by the lower end of the spectrum of this society. there are many intelligent people around the world who do basic manual labour because of various circumstances while relatively low intelligent people sometimes get cushy white collar jobs for various reasons too. I think a society that has more intelligence will have more of a capacity to solve problems in general and I don't think that this is a huge problem to solve. 

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

And remember, most people are not too intelligent so they will fight back and rebel against your coersion of them by "elites". That's already happening now. Imagine how bad it would get if you threatened to sterilize all the MAGA.

I was thinking of somehow creating a separate state after gathering an online movement of like-minded people who believe in the foundational principles of this type of society. I guess you could then buy land and make a state. I know this is all just fantasy in some sense and would be hard to implement, but I think this would be the best way to do it, as the people would willingly want to live in that state. Then, you could keep on increasing the intelligence of the society over time through eugenics. Over time, this society will become dominant due to its advanced tech, just like how the British were able to conquer the world (btw, I'm not saying that this society should do that). At that point, other societies might realize that this model is better than theirs, and they may then adopt it, and that way the cultural meme would spread.
 

[Juns]

7 minutes ago, yetineti said:

@Juns

Have you considered where this need for control comes from? 

It all started when I was young. I .... ha ha. I get what you mean but these are just things that I am thinking about. do you think that me entertaining these ideas means that I have a desire for control? 
 

 

 

[Leo Gura]

Also, your scheme assumes that the people administering this system are not corrupt, but they definitely will be. Can you imagine Trump, Putin, Jinping, Modi, Bolsonaro, Netanyahu, or Musk administering your scheme? Because it will be someone like that.

When a corrupt person administers this system he will sterilize all his ideological opponents and breed all his idiotic supporters and corrupt friends. Because he will define intelligence as whatever serves his personal survival agenda.

Look at how Musk administers X. That's how he would administer your eugenics program.

Edited Saturday at 06:45 PM by Leo Gura

[Juns]

22 minutes ago, The Crocodile said:

That applies perfectly fine to the system described here.

I know you already that.

Now read what I said with the knowledge that I knew you already said that.

you could have a society that voluntarily does this in theory. they could all agree on the laws and agree upon them being enforced. This ideology doesn't involve a strong sense of identity, culture and nationalism. You could argue that that being of high intelligence could act as an identity I guess. 

we all live in societies with top down governmental control in many aspects of our lives. 

"People are put in prison for crimes, and you do have authority over other people's bodies in specific circumstances. However, since we humans don't want to live like animals, we have laws and change them to try and live in an optimal way where the restrictions and rules placed upon society maximize well-being and freedom."
"as I said above, laws and restrictions are agreed upon and created in human societies to maximise well being and freedom and other important things. Once you realise that society is slowly becoming less intelligent and that bad traits are increasing in the genepool you will also realise that this will decrease well being and freedom as the high complexity, advanced society you live in starts to collapse. Then your cherished freedoms start to decrease and your wellbeing too. that's why laws are updated and I believe that this would be a possible update for a new way of running society now that there is no strong natural selection for intelligence."

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Juns said:

for solving the problems of dysgenics and the decreasing intelligence of society. 

1) Who says society's intelligence is decreasing?

2) If you want to increase intelligence this could be done through genetic engineering in the future as an add-on rather than as preventing people from reproducing.

In the future it will be possible to invent a virus that will reprogram a human's DNA to increase baseline intelligence. This virus could be injected in the womb.

Edited Saturday at 06:49 PM by Leo Gura

[yetineti]

@Juns
 

I am not in a position to say without out a doubt that you are controlling, want control, etc.

What is obvious from this is that you are considering the nature of power and its different abilities through structure.

And there is nothing wrong with that.

I just wonder what it is you think may be accomplished this way.

Have you considered the other ways this has been attempted in history? What were their goals?

Could you say there is a fundamental error in the approach? What would that be? Where might we draw a line between tyranny and good government?

Edited Saturday at 06:51 PM by yetineti

[Juns]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Also, your scheme assumes that the people administering this system are not corrupt, but they definitely will be. Can you imagine Trump, Putin, Jinping, Modi, Bolsonaro, Netanyahu, or Musk administering your scheme? Because it will be someone like that.

When a corrupt person administers this system he will sterilize all his ideological opponents and breed all his idiotic supporters and corrupt friends. Because he will define intelligence as whatever serves his personal survival agenda.

Look at how Musk administers X. That's how he would administer your eugenics program.

@Leo Gura

I agree. It is a huge problem, and that's why eugenics is seen as immoral by most people. It makes sense to see it as immoral for most people since it won't work most of the time because of the problems you mentioned. However, what is the solution to the lack of selection for intelligence in the modern world? Should we just let society collapse slowly and then allow for harsh Darwinian conditions to bring us back to where we were before?

I think that if this is done properly, in a stage yellow kind of way, where people, as I said earlier, form their own state because they like these ideas, then it could provide a solution to the problems I mentioned above. If it doesn't work, then, like in that simulation video I sent, the person who headed out into unknown territory will die, and others will know to not follow suit. But until now, the territory hasn't been properly explored, and it's definitely possible that the path to the global maximum is in that direction.

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Juns said:

However, what is the solution to the lack of selection for intelligence in the modern world? Should we just let society collapse slowly

Replace everyone with a single AI hive mind 

Or, just like, better education.

Education can be made really powerful in 100 years. There is enormous potential for improving the edication system. We are nowhere maxed out there.

Edited Saturday at 07:03 PM by Leo Gura

[Fluran]

highly intelligent people just are tasked with cookie cutter tasks in those days anyway. and they are about to be replaced with AI

 

 

so yeah, high computational power, but you need to know what problems you must solve.

[Juns]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

1) Who says society's intelligence is decreasing?

2) If you want to increase intelligence this could be done through genetic engineering in the future as an add-on rather than as preventing people from reproducing.

In the future it will be possible to invent a virus that will reprogram a human's DNA to increase baseline intelligence. This virus could be injected in the womb.

@Leo Gura

Less intelligent people have more children, and more intelligent people have fewer. From my limited knowledge and research, I have come to the conclusion that IQ scores have been increasing mainly due to the Flynn effect, while the g factor is actually declining. I could be wrong about this, of course, but this is my "intuition" after the research I did.

Genetic engineering could definitely be a potential solution, and I mentioned it before in my first post. This would also be considered eugenics. Of course, as you said, it would differ due to the lack of sterilization. In that society, the people who don't accept gene editing—which will most likely be stage blue religious people—would be the only ones left behind. Yeah, I guess this is a valid solution. However, this is not something that we have right now. Or do we? I have heard that some people are doing it—CRISPR?

[Juns]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Replace everyone with a single AI hive mind 

Or, just like, better education.

Education can be made really powerful in 100 years. There is enormous potential for improving the edication system. We are nowhere maxed out there.

@Leo Gura

I think that is where we are headed. I actually do naively think we are headed to a utopian world where AI will magically solve all our problems. 

"

Education only accounts for maximizing genetic potential. It is extremely important in underdeveloped countries, as their potential IQ is likely much higher than what tests show due to lack of education, nutrition, etc. However, one can ask why they are in those conditions in the first place. Of course, many factors contribute to the development of a country, but intelligence is at the top. 

An example of what I mean by genetic potential is height. You are born with a genetic potential when it comes to your height. If you have good nutrition and max out environmental factors, you will reach that potential. However, you can’t magically go beyond that. You can feed Japanese people all the food in the world, but that won’t make them the same height as the Dutch on average. The Korean peninsula is a good example of this. North Koreans are, on average, much shorter than South Koreans because of nutrition."

 

 

[The Crocodile]

24 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Can you imagine Trump, Putin, Jinping, Modi, Bolsonaro, Netanyahu, or Musk administering your scheme? Because it will be someone like that.

Netanyahu is handsome though.

[Leo Gura]

Genetic engineering will certain happen in the future.

Mankind's most important technological revolution will happen when we learn how to genetically modify baseline level of consciousness, not intelligence.

Edited Saturday at 07:09 PM by Leo Gura

[Juns]

5 minutes ago, Fluran said:

highly intelligent people just are tasked with cookie cutter tasks in those days anyway. and they are about to be replaced with AI

 

 

so yeah, high computational power, but you need to know what problems you must solve.

who is setting the tasks?