Back to square one

[Willie]

On 1/7/2025 at 1:36 AM, Flowerfaeiry said:

I don’t really know how to put this but I’ll just start by saying I’ve been a spiritual seeker pretty much my entire life. I was quite young when I remember asking the question to myself “why am I here”. 
 

So I guess that combined with trauma from childhood I naturally turned to therapy, psychedelics, self improvement. I always felt like I was looking for someone or something who had life figured out. 
 

Leo was definitely that person for me for a long time. Then I found ayahuasca. The healers I saw had over 700 ceremonies in over 10 years under their belt. I experienced MASSIVE MASSIVE transformation under their care. 
 

But now—they’ve stopped drinking medicine and have: turned to Jesus (???).

 

This means that I’m more lost than ever because I really looked up to these people and they really do know so many secrets to the universe. So I believe that they have found something real in believing Jesus to be the son of God and to be our Lord and Savior. 
 

Typing that out is painful for me… I thought I had already figured out that while Jesus was a really cool guy, he wasn’t the Son of God and I DEFINITELY didn’t need to repent for my sins to go to heaven. 

 

I did however grow up religious. This complicates things for me. 
 

I don’t know what to do. I actually kind of do see the Truth and value in believing that Jesus can save us. But like as soon as my mind starts working I debunk it pretty fast. But maybe I just need more faith? Ugh.

 

So back to more questioning I go. Man, I’m tired of this…

Why are you relying on people to tell you things? You just give away your sovereignty. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

5 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

Thanks for taking time to reply.

I think my points boils down to:

• Who or what is creating or manipulating things to happen? To set an intention, I need a desire. Where does it come from? Why exactly this desire among an infinity of possibility? Do you - Natasha Tori Maru - create your desires? If not, how are they created?
• Your life could be just like a movie while giving you the impression of control of influence. How you know the difference?
• Life is way to mysterious to figure out a formula
• The pattern you believe to see are
  • 1) Only a fragment of reality. Think of the distribution of matter, dark energy, dark matter in the universe. Only about 5% are matter, rest is invisible.
  • 2) Only what you are programmed to see. What you see are symbols of what truly is. Your eyes believe they see colours, but objects have no colours. It's created by our organism
  • 3) Most likely a fantasy. Humans are pattern- and meaning-making machines. We see them even if they don't exist. Because we want to see them
• Re the coincidences: What I mean is that I don't believe that my life follows a completely random pattern. There are connections, but "I" don't control them. "I" don't create them. They are happening, and I am part of it. Let's say I want to call a friend, take the phone and before I dial he is calling me. That's an example of coincidence for me. In my logic, it was not me - leelajoker, the conscious part that is also writing this message - creating this event. What caused me to want to call him? I don't know. What caused him to call me the very moment? I don't know. Any pattern I might believe to see is IMO just a fluke.

However...maybe I am wrong, maybe I am right. You do you, I do me : )

Greetings again theleelajoker!

• I am creating and manipulating things; I am experiencing a dream and it is exactly as it is supposed to be. I make reality within the dream. The desire I have, is to learn. So thus the dream is propelled to continue 
• Ultimately, I have no control, I set an intention and so it shall be. I am here, learning. I have created this current reality to attain whatever I am needing from it.
• Agree completely - there is no formula. And to think there would be one would be to invest in an institution of thought. I can set an intention, that is all. The outcome is whatever it may be. I can learn a pattern of manipulating energy, but the outcome is never really the same
• Patterns: 

                      Yes, only a tiny element of the whole

                      Yes, I do not see objects even, just the light - vibration - being reflected off it. Reality for me, is just vibration. Oscillation 

                      Yes, I see what I want to see. This is why I create my reality, my intention. I am manipulating energy to see what I want to see.

• I agree they are happening, but for myself, my experience: I am creating the dream as I see fit. It supplies me with whatever I need in that moment.

I suppose you have drilled down to the heart of my experience & belief - that of all this is, indeed, a dream. Because this is my understanding, there is no pointlessness. This is my meaning. Even this discussion with you - I am talking to myself. I am learning more through this. Creating this

I thank you, very much !

 

Edited yesterday at 03:07 AM by Natasha Tori Maru

[Lyubov]

@Flowerfaeiry I see that you are bothered by these other people’s choices for their beliefs. I would perhaps invite you that maybe these people never really did anything for you in actuality and it was only to some degree their guidance that perhaps showed you something innate in you which is always here and now? Would you be open to the idea that you don’t need to play the seeking game to find the beautify and wellbeing and answers you’re looking for? You sound very reliant on these people for your wellbeing. What if there is a spring of knowledge and value already here and now that doesn’t require looking towards other people? 

[theleelajoker]

9 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Greetings again theleelajoker!

• I am creating and manipulating things; I am experiencing a dream and it is exactly as it is supposed to be. I make reality within the dream. The desire I have, is to learn. So thus the dream is propelled to continue 
• Ultimately, I have no control, I set an intention and so it shall be. I am here, learning. I have created this current reality to attain whatever I am needing from it.
• Agree completely - there is no formula. And to think there would be one would be to invest in an institution of thought. I can set an intention, that is all. The outcome is whatever it may be. I can learn a pattern of manipulating energy, but the outcome is never really the same
• Patterns: 

                      Yes, only a tiny element of the whole

                      Yes, I do not see objects even, just the light - vibration - being reflected off it. Reality for me, is just vibration. Oscillation 

                      Yes, I see what I want to see. This is why I create my reality, my intention. I am manipulating energy to see what I want to see.

• I agree they are happening, but for myself, my experience: I am creating the dream as I see fit. It supplies me with whatever I need in that moment.

I suppose you have drilled down to the heart of my experience & belief - that of all this is, indeed, a dream. Because this is my understanding, there is no pointlessness. This is my meaning. Even this discussion with you - I am talking to myself. I am learning more through this. Creating this

I thank you, very much !

 

Thank you as well. After our exchange I believe that our perspectives are actually a lot closer than I thought they are

Wish you all the best

[Flowerfaeiry]

On 1/7/2025 at 4:53 AM, Leo Gura said:

Deconstruct it. It's fantasy.

None of these shamans or "healers" are epistemically serious people. They have low cognitive development, and no amount of ayahausca will fix it.

Self-deception is a bitch.

Be ware of all the spiritual group-think happening in these communities.

What about Christianity is so tempting for people? Why are there so many stories of former new agers coming out of their old ways into Jesus? I mean there’s gotta be something to it right? 

[Flowerfaeiry]

On 1/7/2025 at 7:33 PM, Ulax said:

@Flowerfaeiry I mean Aubrey Marcus put out a statement endorsing Trump and described him as a loving person lol. These people are not immune from delusion.

That said it sounds like a tough situation to have those you look up to take a path which you didn’t expect. And have that choice of path cause you to question whether you can trust them as you did. I think is commendable that you are willing to reflect on this change and not just follow them. I’d take some time to be extra kind to yourself as I think inevitably this may bring up some challenging things for you. All best.

[UnbornTao]

"When you meet Jesus on the road, kill him."

 

[Thought Art]

On 2025-01-07 at 10:25 AM, Salvijus said:

The arguments I see here are based on reasoning and logic. It just so happens that a person with a much higher capacity to reason and be logical has a different opinion on this topic. It also gives him more weight and credibility because his reasoning is much less likely to have flaws. That's the definition of high iq basically. 

No. IQ Isn’t the isn’t the only factor here. IQ is a particular measurement of some facets of intelligence. It doesn’t account for things like emotional intelligence, spiritual intelligence, awakening, and self deception. 

Edited yesterday at 08:13 PM by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

22 minutes ago, Flowerfaeiry said:

What about Christianity is so tempting for people? Why are there so many stories of former new agers coming out of their old ways into Jesus? I mean there’s gotta be something to it right? 

I think like he said before… these people aren’t pursuing truth but good feelings. 

New Ager’s, healers, shamans, new age priests and priestess are not serious people when it comes to epistemics. They are like leaves in the wind. Group think is also at play here, there are trends and fads. 
 

A lot of new age is ungrounded and fantasy, and it seems they are moving as a group from one fantasy to another.

It’s like a horizontal movement. Similar structure, different content. 
 

You sort of need to do what feels right for you I suppose. 
 

Seeking truth is one thing, and partaking in spiritual community is another. 
 

I personally take why I like from constructs. Leave the rest.

Edited yesterday at 08:15 PM by Thought Art

[Flowerfaeiry]

26 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

I think like he said before… these people aren’t pursuing truth but good feelings. 

New Ager’s, healers, shamans, new age priests and priestess are not serious people when it comes to epistemics. They are like leaves in the wind. Group think is also at play here, there are trends and fads. 
 

A lot of new age is ungrounded and fantasy, and it seems they are moving as a group from one fantasy to another.

It’s like a horizontal movement. Similar structure, different content. 
 

You sort of need to do what feels right for you I suppose. 
 

Seeking truth is one thing, and partaking in spiritual community is another. 
 

I personally take why I like from constructs. Leave the rest.

They are pursuing truth though! That’s why this is so hard. 

[Flowerfaeiry]

Quote from her Facebook: “I could never deny the growth I experienced in 12 years going so deep with the plants. But after so many years and still having so many questions and feeling unsatisfied with the loop I found myself in I knew what I was experiencing wasn’t truth. The gifts and blessings God has for us through his son Jesus is unlike anything I have ever known”

 

Sheesh! 

[Thought Art]

@Flowerfaeiry Are they really though? "Gifts and blessings" sure feel good. 

Hmm, I mean. Perhaps they are pursuing truth. But, in this sort of way where they are moving from one belief system to a the next. It's definitely something worth contemplating and exploring what this means for you personally.

A lot of people are pursuing truth. But, should I follow them?

My own understanding is that Christianity is a deep construct in the mind of man. A construct that blocks ones ability to discover truth. 

Hmm, all this leads me to further self reflection. Not that I am considering Christianity but, how to better understand all this and myself.

 

Edited yesterday at 09:05 PM by Thought Art

[UnbornTao]

17 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

A lot of people are pursuing truth. But, should I follow them?

Not sure about that. But point taken. 

[theleelajoker]

36 minutes ago, Flowerfaeiry said:

Quote from her Facebook: “I could never deny the growth I experienced in 12 years going so deep with the plants. But after so many years and still having so many questions and feeling unsatisfied with the loop I found myself in I knew what I was experiencing wasn’t truth. The gifts and blessings God has for us through his son Jesus is unlike anything I have ever known”

 

Sheesh! 

It's one thing to say or to write sth. It's another thing to authentically experience it. In fact, it's a gap as broad as the Atlantic Ocean.

If there is one thing I learned from interacting with people, then it is to not trust their words. Words are just stories. Humans are incredible good in deceiving themselves. INCREDIBLE GOOD.

Meet the people over an extended period of time in different situations. See how they behave if things get uncomfortable. If you then genuinely find that what they say is aligned with what they do  - then investigate with an open mind. Do not trust any  statements unless you have a sufficient sample of direct experience.

[Carl-Richard]

On 7.1.2025 at 7:36 AM, Flowerfaeiry said:

I actually kind of do see the Truth and value in believing that Jesus can save us.

Wtf does that mean exactly? What does Jesus saving us look like? What does believing in that look like?

[Sugarcoat]

Why do you have to believe at all? Why can’t you just let it be an open possibility. Maybe Jesus was that guy, maybe not. You can pick out for yourself the valuable parts from the scriptures of Christianity and disregard the rest. Same with new ageYou don’t have to necessarily find a firm position between them.

[Carl-Richard]

On 7.1.2025 at 3:45 PM, Salvijus said:

The argument that a cognitive developed mind would reject Christianity doesn't stand because a person with a sharpest, most resonable, logical, cognitive mind with 210iq is actually a christian, lol.

Calling Langan a "Christian" is a statement that probably couldn't be more subject to the pre-trans fallacy. Langan's notion of God is miles more expansive and general than what a standard Bible-thumper will entertain. Watch his Michael Knowles interview.

Edited 20 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[Flowerfaeiry]

26 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Wtf does that mean exactly? What does Jesus saving us look like? What does believing in that look like?

I could see how it would bring more peace. For it to be an end to seeking. To see that Jesus is the most high and to believe that is reality. Were you raised religious? To me it’s like asking me what water is (I come from very religious families)

[Flowerfaeiry]

20 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

Why do you have to believe at all? Why can’t you just let it be an open possibility. Maybe Jesus was that guy, maybe not. You can pick out for yourself the valuable parts from the scriptures of Christianity and disregard the rest. Same with new ageYou don’t have to necessarily find a firm position between them.

Because if I don’t I’ll go to hell. Hypothetically. If you get what I mean.

[Sugarcoat]

Just now, Flowerfaeiry said:

Because if I don’t I’ll go to hell. Hypothetically. If you get what I mean.

I’m not sure I get what you mean. Are you genuinely afraid you’ll go to hell if you don’t believe firmly in Jesus ?