Shaming non-vegans is not right.

[Sugarcoat]

8 hours ago, Buck Edwards said:

I don't agree with this. Number one reason being that factory farm meat is much  cheaper than grass fed and sustainably raised meat. Unless the prices are reduced, most people (especially low income groups) will stick with factory farm meat. They simply can't afford it sustainably. In the long run veganism might collapse as an elitist option because mostly rich people can afford all the organic options and if veganism has to win, then prices of grass fed sustainably raised meat need to be sufficiently lowered to appeal to low income groups. 

I understand that not everyone can afford grass finished products that’s why I think it’s okay they buy the conventionally raised. But those who can afford the grass finished I think it’s a good idea to buy it. But most importantly I think we should reduce our meat intake and switch to a more plant dominant diet, science says it’s optimal. And it does not have to be more expensive.

 

8 hours ago, Buck Edwards said:

I saw the prices on organic grass fed free range eggs. And I was put off by that, although they taste better and are even healthier and I would have loved to get them, but I switched to my cheap regular white farm factory eggs to maintain my budget and I eat a lot of eggs to keep up my protein. Not to say that I don't eat vegetables. I do. But I like a balanced diet so I incorporate all kinds of things, both veggies, fish,chicken, eggs and whatever I can afford. So instead of being angry (and shaming) at people who eat farm factory meat, maybe vegans can support their movement by focusing on how to make organic options more cheaper and sustainable for folks who can't afford it. Shaming is not the way. You understand it, but it's not ethical to shame or bully a non-vegan. It will backfire badly. I get that I might be contributing to animal suffering but I don't wish to sacrifice much for it, not due to lack of empathy, but for concern for myself and I don't find that selfish  and I don't care about what Vegan science says because their science might be agenda driven so difficult to trust and if better options are available I might switch to them as in cheaper options in the future. 

 

Making organic options cheaper is a good idea to make more people buy it yes. I don’t know though if it’s possible to make it cheaper because there’s a reason it’s more expensive. But if you reduce animal products intake you could potentially I’m not sure because I haven’t calculated difference between a more plant based diet vs more animal based , but it could potentially be cheaper to eat more veggies, like legumes for example are cheap. And then you’d have more money left so the few times you eat meat you may afford the better organic options. But as I said I don’t know that for sure as I haven’t calculated the difference.
 

I don’t think it’s a good idea to be angry and shame people who eat conventionally raised animal products that’s why, I said that I have an understanding of vegans who do that because of the tremendous suffering it causes animals. But I don’t believe it works to shame people into making change, so it’s generally not a good idea.

Whether to trust the science or not I’m not fully sure. But I just said what the science said and that is that eating a more plant dominant diet is optimal.

[Sugarcoat]

9 hours ago, Buck Edwards said:

@Sugarcoat what kind of meat do you eat (if you eat at all)? 

I usually only eat meat on holidays or occasionally when my parents barbecue, then I eat the meat my parents buy which is usually conventionally raised. Other than that I eat chicken and eggs sometimes , also what my parents buy so it’s conventionally raised, but I have decided to eat more plant based this year. Hopefully I don’t sound like a hypocrite 

My goal this year is to eat more plant based. I’m still an omnivore so I eat animal products but I thought I’d limit chicken to maybe once a week, I’m gonna buy organic meat occasionally, then fish about once a week. Something like that

Edited yesterday at 02:28 PM by Sugarcoat

[Buck Edwards]

27 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

I usually only eat meat on holidays or occasionally when my parents barbecue, then I eat the meat my parents buy which is usually conventionally raised. Other than that I eat chicken and eggs sometimes , also what my parents buy so it’s conventionally raised, but I have decided to eat more plant based this year. Hopefully I don’t sound like a hypocrite 

My goal this year is to eat more plant based. I’m still an omnivore so I eat animal products but I thought I’d limit chicken to maybe once a week, I’m gonna buy organic meat occasionally, then fish about once a week. Something like that

Thank you for the response. 

[Sugarcoat]

52 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

Thank you for the response. 

No problem 

[Javfly33]

There is a brand new Documentary by Arte TV (french television) that recently came Up where It was found about 30-40% of the animals in the organic farming industry were found to have some kind of illness, whether is over stressed cows producing double of milk that their body is used to, chickens that actually do not go outside and overcrowded, pigs living in their own shit, etc...

So if organic farming has this kind of conditions, just think how It might work in  industry farming. This is basically to say at this point unless you are eating from a local small farm of your village, most animals are sick and living in under-health conditions, now the question is do you want to put food into your body that is in such conditions. 

Opting for a Vegan food is also challenging since due to soil degradation it entails high deficiencies in most nutrients and vitamins. Also in western world there is not enough variety of Vegan type of food unless you have access to certain type of supermarkets.

This type of youtubers anyways do not contribute to their cause, at the contrary they make people hate them and just eat meat because of this nonsensical persecution. 

Edited yesterday at 04:10 PM by Javfly33

[Nivsch]

@Javfly33 Is Pasture rised considered better in that sense?

[Javfly33]

34 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Javfly33 Is Pasture rised considered better in that sense?

Theorically organic farming guarantees certain quality and standard of livings and eating of the animal. The problem is that at least in Europe this organic certifications have become deeply corrupted.

For example, It could happen that a small farm that doesn't have certificate might have the animals in better conditions and eating organic or near organic pasture, than a certified farm that is actually a mass farm in disguise.

The key is finding local small farms, whether they are certified organic or not. Most farmers that care about the soil Will maintain and do certain organic practices even if they dont have the cert.

Because any conscious farmer knows having animals walking all over the soil every day IS one of the most cheapest ways to guarantee/regenerate rich soil 

 

If anyone wants to Watch the documentary I mentioned, and 

@Leo Gura will probably love the video too 

Corruption long hands have reached organic certifications too

Edited yesterday at 05:05 PM by Javfly33

[sholomar]

6 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

I understand if everyone switched to grass finished animal products maybe it wouldn’t be sustainable either because you’d need a bunch of land for that. But that’s why I said it’s key for people to significantly reduce their meat intake and switch to a more plant based diet. And that doesn’t necessarily mean switching to heavily processed meat alternatives, one could eat legumes for example. If one can afford grass finished animal products I think it’s better to buy it, but if not then I understand one would buy conventionally raised.

Grass finished steaks just doesn't taste as good either. The fattening process from the grain gives the meat the marbling that gives it what would be considered a USDA "prime" grade which can not be achieved on grain finished meat, at least not easily. The only real difference between grass and grain finished is what the cows eat the last few months. Granted feed lot conditions are not the best in some cases.  Still it produces the best finished product.  To a degree the cows enjoy gorging themselves on an all you can eat buffet of sugar, just like humans do as our BMI has reached record highs.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Butchery/comments/193r22n/grassfed_vs_nongrassfed_vs_grainfinished/khbnxmv/

https://hagancattleco.com/blogs/news/which-beef-is-better-grass-fed-or-grass-fed-gran-finished

Another interesting bit of information:

"Utilizing grass forage as the primary source of feed also increases the carbon footprint because forage diets produce more methane gas emissions from the animal’s digestive tract than high-energy grain diets. Methane is 28 times more potent, trapping heat in the earth’s atmosphere as carbon dioxide.

Generally, the grain-finished cattle will reach market in 12-16 months with an average carcass of 832 lbs. It’s grass-fed counterpart will take 20-26 months to reach market with an average carcass of 638 lbs.

According to the USDA’s per capita beef consumption data, this means that a grain-finished animal can feed approximately 10.4 people as opposed to a 8 for the grass-fed animal.

Sara Place, an assistant professor of sustainable beef cattle systems at Oklahoma State University has stated: “The combination of a higher-energy, lower-forage diet, less time spent on feed in finishing and heavier carcass weights translate to a 18.5% to 67.5% per capita lower carbon footprint.”

The numbers support that grain-finished animal practices are more sustainable and reduce environmental impacts."

 

 

Edited 22 hours ago by sholomar

[Sugarcoat]

Just now, sholomar said:

Grass finished steaks just doesn't taste as good either. The cattle enjoy being fed grain at the end of their lives, and it gives the meat the marbling that gives it what would be considered a USDA "prime" grade which can not be achieved on grain finished meat. The only real difference between grass and grain finished is what the cows eat the last few months. Imagine given an all you can eat buffet of sugary crap at the end of life... it might not be the best for you but they gain a lot of weight from gorging themselves on it.

https://www.copiaohio.com/post/personal-thoughts-about-100-grass-fed-finished-beef-vs-grain-fed

https://www.reddit.com/r/Butchery/comments/193r22n/grassfed_vs_nongrassfed_vs_grainfinished/

I’m no expert in what these terms mean. I’m just thinking in regard to how the cows live: a life of freely grazing vs confined in small spaces, and the effect on the environment for these different methods. So whichever one is better for the cows and enviroment I support. Maybe we can find a way to make it equally tasty in the future 

[Something Funny]

 

[Emerald]

10 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

I usually only eat meat on holidays or occasionally when my parents barbecue, then I eat the meat my parents buy which is usually conventionally raised. Other than that I eat chicken and eggs sometimes , also what my parents buy so it’s conventionally raised, but I have decided to eat more plant based this year. Hopefully I don’t sound like a hypocrite 

My goal this year is to eat more plant based. I’m still an omnivore so I eat animal products but I thought I’d limit chicken to maybe once a week, I’m gonna buy organic meat occasionally, then fish about once a week. Something like that

What is it that motivates you to eat a more plant based diet?

[Sugarcoat]

2 minutes ago, Emerald said:

What is it that motivates you to eat a more plant based diet?

It’s better for climate, animals, and health according to science.

I’ve listened a little bit to this guy Simon Hill 

[Emerald]

17 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

It’s better for climate, animals, and health according to science.

I’ve listened a little bit to this guy Simon Hill 

I'm not familiar with Simon Hill. But I originally went Vegan for the ethical reasons as it pertains to animals, and being better for the climate was a secondary boon.

And I'm only recently focusing more on eating solely a whole food Vegan diet.

Do you plan on going all the way Vegan one day? 

Edited 17 hours ago by Emerald

[Sugarcoat]

11 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I'm not familiar with Simon Hill. But I originally went Vegan for the ethical reasons as it pertains to animals, and being better for the climate was a secondary boon.

And I'm only recently focusing more on eating solely a whole food Vegan diet.

Do you plan on going all the way Vegan one day? 

Those are all good reasons.

Whole food is always the best

I dont have a plan of going vegan, but I might try it out sometime. The reason being it seems to me atleast a tad bit healthier to include some animal products to make sure you get all the variety of nutrients in a more balanced way. Maybe it’s true or not, it’s what it seems to me. I will though try to buy more organic animal products, grass fed since it’s better for animals and environment 

Edited 17 hours ago by Sugarcoat

[Basman]

In my opinion, the healthiest diet is a semi-vegetarian diet because you'll eat more veggies and avoid more of the processed garbage while still covering both nutrition and taste. I think this is much more realistically possible for most people than veganism.

Edited 16 hours ago by Basman

[Sugarcoat]

17 minutes ago, Basman said:

In my opinion, the healthiest diet is a semi-vegetarian diet because you'll eat more veggies and avoid more of the processed garbage while still covering both nutrition and taste. I think this is much more realistically possible for most people than veganism.

Agreed for the most part

[AION]

8 hours ago, Basman said:

In my opinion, the healthiest diet is a semi-vegetarian diet because you'll eat more veggies and avoid more of the processed garbage while still covering both nutrition and taste. I think this is much more realistically possible for most people than veganism.

I wouldn't call it vegan. I would just call it a balanced whole food diet without processed foods. Processed vegan burgers are as bad as processed meat burgers. 

 

Edited 8 hours ago by AION