Shaming non-vegans is not right.

[Nivsch]

11 minutes ago, AION said:

That sounds good if that works out for you. I'm not a big volume eater. I prefer high protein fresh cut meats, with 2-3x the veggies and healthy carbs, topped off with nuts, seeds and fruits. And because I eat such dense foods, I don't have to eat a lot. Mediterranean diet works the best for me because my heritage is also from there. Some people can't thrive better on certain cuisines. If you are Caucasian, it is more difficult to survive on vegan diet, because Caucasian genes are accustomed to meat consumption. At the end you have to find what works best for you and it is important to be honest about what your body says to you about your diet and not be in denial about it.

Absolutely. Nice and interesting to hear. And not any less than that your brain and your mental health. People don't know how different foods affect their consciousness, emotions and mental health without them knowing it is happening. I feel I know almost every food what it does to me mentally what took me years of trial and error.

Edited yesterday at 09:42 PM by Nivsch

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

The population with the highest life expectancy (Hong Kong, Japan, France, Switzerland, Australia, etc.) are also those who eat the most meat and animal products in general.

In the China study, the blue zones where people live the longest are places associated with the lowest levels of meat consumption.

[Emerald]

3 hours ago, Ero said:

Just an added perspective: Veganism is very much a privileged diet. When a person makes in a month what you spend in a single shopping spree in WholeFoods and what not, it's not really feasible. Especially when you don't have access to stores with "replacements" which are most of times 2x the price the originals. I totally sympathize with the environmental impact and health considerations of being Vegan. But you have to remember large parts of the world don't even have consistent meals. 

First off, I've never been to a Whole Foods in my entire life.

And I went Vegan when we were making less than $40,000 per year combined. I was making $12k per year as a substitute teacher and he was making around $25k per year as a waiter, and we were always scraping the bottom of the pot.

But I was still able to be Vegan because most Vegan foods are cheaper than foods with meat and dairy. And I'd do all of the shopping at Walmart back then.

And currently, I'm making a bit more money. But I still spend an average amount on groceries because I mostly eat rice, potatoes, beans, legumes, tofu, bananas, frozen veggies, and a few other fresh/frozen fruits and vegetables.

So, a whole food Vegan diet is actually much cheaper than a whole food diet with meat, dairy, and eggs.

If I were buying a bunch of meat instead of beans, our grocery bill would be much higher.

That said, eating a healthy diet is more expensive than eating a junky diet.

And a junk omnivorous diet is the cheapest diet you can do if you're getting cheap snack cakes, ramen noodles, cheap lunch meats, pudding cups, etc.

There are plenty of accidentally Vegan foods that are quite cheap too like Oreos, potato chips, sugary drinks, etc. that fall into this category as well.

So, processed omnivorous diet foods and processed accidentally Vegan foods are the cheapest foods.

And I understand that it takes some extra funds to deliberately eat a healthy whole food diet, so that's where the there is an element of truth about there being privilege to the Vegan diet. It means you don't have to eat the cheapest and unhealthiest foods in the store.

Processed Vegan foods that are deliberately Vegan are quite expensive, but most Vegans treat processed Vegan foods as an extra thing... not as the main thing that's being consumed.

Also, I don't expect anyone to go Vegan who isn't getting consistent meals. If someone has to focus on just eating, then I understand.

But if someone is in a wealthy nation and has access to enough funds to pick and choose what they eat, these are the people who have the power to go Vegan.

And if someone's eating a more expensive diet because they're eating a bunch of steak and porkchops, they can save some money by going Vegan.

So, I ascribe the responsibility to people in this position.

Edited 22 hours ago by Emerald

[Ero]

2 hours ago, Emerald said:

And I went Vegan when we were making less than $40,000 per year combined. I was making $12k per year as a substitute teacher and he was making around $25k per year as a waiter, and we were always scraping the bottom of the pot.

I for a part of my life had to live on about $3,000 per year. While taking care of another person. And I was in no way the exception - around 30% in my country live on that or less.

2 hours ago, Emerald said:

I mostly eat rice, potatoes, beans, legumes, tofu, bananas, frozen veggies, and a few other fresh/frozen fruits and vegetables.

Where I am from, bananas, tofu, frozen vegies and fruits are all more expensive than eggs and meats like chicken or minced. 

My point is, you Americans have access to different foods and benefit from a large state-subsidised agriculture. That is not the case for a lot of people around the world.

Edited 20 hours ago by Ero

[Emerald]

15 minutes ago, Ero said:

I for a part of my life had to live on about $3,000 per year. While taking care of another person. And I was in no way the exception - around 30% in my country live on that or less.

Where I am from, bananas, tofu, frozen vegies and fruits are all more expensive than eggs and meats like chicken or minced. 

My point is, you Americans have access to different foods and benefit from a large state-subsidised agriculture. That is not the case for a lot of people around the world.

Here in the states, $37,000 per year as a couple with kids is quite difficult to live on. The average individual person's salary is around $50,000... and my husband and I made less than that combined prior to 2020 when my business took off.

To give some context, we were in the lowest 20% of income earners when I went Vegan.

And because of summer months being my off-cycle as a substitute teacher and summer being the slow months for his job as a server, we were always struggling through lean times in summer and fall where we were below the poverty line.

And I am mostly advocating for Vegan diets for people who live in wealthy nations who are at liberty to have some degree of choice over what they eat.... which is probably 80%+ of people who live in the states.

If someone's struggling to eat, then I don't recommend being selective. If I were in a situation where I was dealing with food scarcity, I would at least drop back to Vegetarianism. And if I were truly starving for multiple days on end, I would eat meat.

The issue comes about when someone uses the "Veganism is expensive" argument when they themselves are in a position to save money on their groceries by going Vegan. 

At that point, it's just not an honest argument because it frames a diet with an average grocery cost as more expensive that a diet with a higher grocery cost.

[Bobby_2021]

Watch Seaspiracy documentary on Netflix. 

 

We need to first stop eating fish and all sea foods, first. It's raping the planet from the inside out in more ways than you thought. Highly recommend watching this.

Edited 18 hours ago by Bobby_2021

[AION]

Veganism is not cheaper if you have to factor in all the vitamin pills, doctor pills, blood checks, health problems and hospital bills on the long term. If I was vegan I would have to eat much larger amounts of food to feel satiated. I think some eggs and chicken legs won’t steam roll your bank account if you eat it twice a week. If you count all the hidden costs veganism I think it is more expensive. For example legumes and rice will become boring after a while and you will want avocados and that bad for your wallet and for the environment (because of transportation co2). Of course every diet can be made as cheap or as expensive as you want but if you live in a western country and you are on a budget, getting some fresh cut cheap meats like chicken, eggs or ground beef once a week and eating it in small portions is more accessible and more affordable; and you would still be able to eat your rice, legumes, potatoes and such. It will create a denser diet which will allow you to eat less volume. It is a lesser strain on your body and environment, and healthier. 

Edited 16 hours ago by AION

[Something Funny]

@AION have you counted? Which country's economy did you base your calculations on?

What vitamins were you buying? How many times per year did you do blood work and doctor visits in this hypothetical scenario?

What makes you think that omnivore diet doesn't require bloodwork, doctor visits, and supplements?

Hospitals are packed with omnivores.

[Something Funny]

@Ero where are you from?

Are you aware of the concept called purchasing power?

[Schizophonia]

12 hours ago, Emerald said:

In the China study, the blue zones where people live the longest are places associated with the lowest levels of meat consumption.

It's essentially cherry piking and falsification.

The countries that eat the most meat are 1) those where people are physically tallest 2) those where people have the greatest life expectancy.

 

[Ero]

5 hours ago, Something Funny said:

@Ero where are you from?

Are you aware of the concept called purchasing power?

That exact country is not important. Shit back home is not 15 times less expensive. I am right now an international student in Cambridge, Massachusetts, considered one of the most expensive places to live in the US. Prices here are 1.5- 2 times those back home. So spare me the demeaning question.

[Schizophonia]

7 hours ago, AION said:

Veganism is not cheaper if you have to factor in all the vitamin pills, doctor pills, blood checks, health problems and hospital bills on the long term. If I was vegan I would have to eat much larger amounts of food to feel satiated. I think some eggs and chicken legs won’t steam roll your bank account if you eat it twice a week. If you count all the hidden costs veganism I think it is more expensive. For example legumes and rice will become boring after a while and you will want avocados and that bad for your wallet and for the environment (because of transportation co2). Of course every diet can be made as cheap or as expensive as you want but if you live in a western country and you are on a budget, getting some fresh cut cheap meats like chicken, eggs or ground beef once a week and eating it in small portions is more accessible and more affordable; and you would still be able to eat your rice, legumes, potatoes and such. It will create a denser diet which will allow you to eat less volume. It is a lesser strain on your body and environment, and healthier. 

Veganism is cheaper if you eat a horrible slave diet of rice, beans, and supplements.

If you want to be healthy and still enjoy yourself you have to replace beans with tofu/tempeh or protein powder, eat most of your carbs in the form of pasta, bananas or dates, and eat lots of nuts.
This is what makes veganism "expensive".

When you are an omnivore you can get chicken pieces with skin for a few euros and you have a good amount of protein, fat, calories in general and nutrients some of which are only found in good proportions in meat.
Even better fish.

And that's it.

[Something Funny]

@Ero how's that a demeaning question? I am asking because I would like compare the prices for myself to know the truth instead of trusting some random guy online who might be full of shit for all I know.

 

[Ero]

@Something Funny Then phrase it as “what is the purchasing power/price disparity between the US and your country “ not “are you aware”. The former indicates your interest in learning more, the second is demeaning and is the way most westerners speak to people from other countries ime.

[Something Funny]

7 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Veganism is cheaper if you eat a horrible slave diet of rice, beans, and supplements.

Lol. Says a guy from a country that invented eating frogs.

Apparently you have never had a good bean soup. Its literally one of the tastiest things on this planet. 

 

 

[Something Funny]

@Ero I asked are you aware, because I was not sure if you are aware...

And I am not a westerner btw, I am from Ukraine, living in Poland right now. My sister lived in Canada for 2 years so I know for a fact that her salary would need to be at least 2.5 x of mine to afford a similar level of lifestyle. And Poland isn't even a poor country.

And US is even more expensive than Canada from what I know. So for your lifestyle to be just 2 times more expensive than back home, you would have to be coming from a pretty decent country. Which is why I am asking you where you are from as your story doesn't seem to be that solid to me.

[Schizophonia]

2 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

Lol. Says a guy from a country that invented eating frogs.

Yum.

2 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

Apparently you have never had a good bean soup. Its literally one of the tastiest things on this planet. 

 

 

When a non-French (or Chinese, Italian, Thai...) person rates a meal, you have to remove 3 points out of 10 ; 5 if it's an anglo-saxon/
So in your case, you have to understand that this soup is ok.

 

My theorem is infallible, don't bother looking 

[Ero]

@Something Funny I am from the Balkans. GDP per capita is comparable to Ukraine’s.  Prices I am referring account for the crazy inflation we have been having. Point is at 3k a year, even with a price disparity we are not even close to a comfortable wage.

p.s You being Eastern Europe makes the phrasing of the question even worse. Have you never been talked down upon to know that is not appreciated?

[Something Funny]

8 minutes ago, Ero said:

am from the Balkans. GDP per capita is comparable to Ukraine’s.  Prices I am referring account for the crazy inflation we have been having. Point is at 3k a year, even with a price disparity we are not even close to a comfortable wage.

Yes, obviously 3k a year is not a comfortable wage. But then its not comfortable, period. Whether you are vegan or not.

And if in your case you wasn't feeling capable of going vegan - its okay. Whether it was the finances or you just had too much on your plate, or whatever. It doesn't matter. You don't need to feel like you need an excuse for not being vegan.

But, as a matter of fact, I don't think that vegan diet would be that much more expensive. Unless you are a gourmet like Schizofonia and are averese to "slave" food like rice and beans, lol.

8 minutes ago, Ero said:

p.s You being Eastern Europe makes the phrasing of the question even worse. Have you never been talked down upon to know that is not appreciated?

Actually, most Polish people are really nice to me, even if I had a few individual bad experiences. But it doesn't matyer because I wasn't talking down to you. I asked you a straightforward question. Your interprentation of it is not my responsibility.

Edited 9 hours ago by Something Funny

[Something Funny]

1 minute ago, Something Funny said:

And if in your case you wasn't feeling capable of going vegan - its okay. Whether it was the finances or you just had too much on your plate, or whatever. It doesn't matter. You don't need to feel like you need an excuse for not being vegan.

This is what annoys me the most actually. If people here just said that they don't want to be vegan - I would be fine with it. But you guys feel the need to come up with random bullshit and twist facts becuase you feel like you need an excuse.