Shaming non-vegans is not right.

[Emerald]

9 hours ago, NewKidOnTheBlock said:

Depends on what kind of meat you eat. It's funny how all you vegans can name only one potential symptom while I can name at least a dozen for the vegan diet😂

Meat consumption is linked with an increased risk of all-cause mortality primarily because of the saturated fat consumption. And that's borne out in many studies and meta-analyses.

That's why Vegans bring it up, because it's the #1 death bringer to humans in wealthy nations.

The issues people bring up with the Vegan diet only happen if people aren't eating enough calories.

And you don't find many Vegans dying because of "nutrient deficiencies" unless the person has an eating disorder.

Those who eat a plant-based diet tend to live longer lives with fewer strokes and heart attacks compared to meat eaters.

[Emerald]

9 hours ago, Quader said:

You're right, it's about returning to form and shedding the excess greed. The natives know all about this, and they would roll in their graves upon learning all their herds are all but gone. If we could utilize our technology without an imposition of "personal gain" we could have earth flourish with life greater than it ever could on its own without us. We can do it. If money == environment diversity than it would be done instantaneously. We just haven't been pushed into a corner hard enough to change our cancerous way. 

That's just a fantasy. It's not a real solution.

Plus, 60-80% of farmland is used to feed the meat the we eat. And those are the big mono-crops like corn and soy. 

So, animal agriculture in any form is going to decrease biodiversity because the only way to feed the volume of cows, pigs, and chickens humans eat every year, we need lots of mono-crop farmland.

And it takes 16 lbs of grain to produce 1 lb of beef. So, meat is a very inefficient food to produce.

[NewKidOnTheBlock]

29 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Meat consumption is linked with an increased risk of all-cause mortality primarily because of the saturated fat consumption. And that's borne out in many studies and meta-analyses.

It's not that simple. Like I said, that was a consenzus sometimes in the previous century, but the new consenzus is that for LDL cholesterol (the bad one) to be trully harmfull you need a certain level of sugar consumption, which increases the trully bad LDL particles (smaller, denser). But as long as you eat high quality, low fat and non processed meat (not too much thermally processed either), you will be fine and you will be healtier than a vegan, whose diet lacks over 5 micronutrients. Looks like I have to keep hammering this point down

Also vegans are also at risk of strokes, just a bit of a different kind.

[Emerald]

44 minutes ago, NewKidOnTheBlock said:

It's not that simple. Like I said, that was a consenzus sometimes in the previous century, but the new consenzus is that for LDL cholesterol (the bad one) to be trully harmfull you need a certain level of sugar consumption, which increases the trully bad LDL particles (smaller, denser). But as long as you eat high quality, low fat and non processed meat (not too much thermally processed either), you will be fine and you will be healtier than a vegan, whose diet lacks over 5 micronutrients. Looks like I have to keep hammering this point down

Also vegans are also at risk of strokes, just a bit of a different kind.

It's borne out in many studies organized into a greater meta-analyses that meat consumption is associated with higher all-cause mortality and the less meat and the more plants in a diet, the more it's associated with lower instances of all-cause mortality because of specifically because of meat's impact on LDL cholesterol.

Here's an example of an abstract of a meta-analysis that includes 9 studies... https://academic.oup.com/aje/article-abstract/179/3/282/103471?redirectedFrom=fulltext&login=false#no-access-message

But there was also another meta-analysis that included thousands of studies that showed the same thing. I just couldn't find the article, but I have linked it on another Veganism-related thread. And the conclusion of the larger meta-analysis is that diets lower in meat are associated with lower levels of all-cause mortality.

[Michael569]

2 hours ago, NewKidOnTheBlock said:

LDL cholesterol (the bad one) to be trully harmfull you need a certain level of sugar consumption, which increases the trully bad LDL particles (smaller, denser).

not necessarily. ApoB containing lipoproteins (LDL, VLDL, ILDL and LP(a)) are atherogenic independently of the co-existing comorbidities. Although you are right,  other comorbidities like hypoglycaemia, and or hypertension accelerate it. For example, existing hypertension increases the force that pushes ApoB particles inside tunica intima and chronically  increased blood glucose levels can lead to microinflammation of glycocalyx (protects the coating of blood vessels) but in the absence of ApoB particles, they do not cause heart disease. ApoB is the major causative factor of CVD. Also ofcourse factors like inflammation and toxins play a critical role in atherogenesis. 

With regards to the particular size (meaning the size of the lipoprotein carrier) , smaller ones are more atherogenic, that's true but even the larger VLDL become atherogenic after losing triglyceride molecule and become the remnant particle. The sort of stuff on the internet where they say "small scratchy particles  and large & cuddly particles" is a bit inaccurate and stripped of all nuances. 

The issue with LDL penetration into the walls of blood vessles is an unfortunate consequence of the imperfection of the human cardiovascular system. It happens all the time and we can't 100% stop it. It might be the primary reason while, in the long term, CVD is unavoidable. But minimising the content of saturated fats in the diet is a great strategy. Its not that LDL in food is bad but it is that high saturated fat content disrupts LDL clearance by the liver and so those ApoB rich particles stay in circulation much longer. And the longer they do, the higher % that some of them end up inside tunica intima, locked irreversibly to proteoglycans (onset of CVD). And it is why eggs aren't associated with CVD despite high LDL content. Because they are low in saturated fats. 

Again, doesn't matter how you look at this, serum LDL is associated proportionally with the risk of cardiovascular disease independently of all other variables. In animal studies, in human studies, in RCTs, metabolic ward studies,  in epidemiology and in Mendelian Randomization Trials. At this point the evidence is so overwhelming that denying this is just a quackery 

2 hours ago, NewKidOnTheBlock said:

Also vegans are also at risk of strokes, just a bit of a different kind.

Not all vegans. The literature on the cerebrovascular events is particularly referring to the risk of hyperhomocysteinaemia in people with B12 deficiency. It is true that vegans are at higher risk of this deficiency if they don't supplement but it is easily remedied. 

...but

this is a risk to others than just vegans. People with mutations at key enzymes in the methylation panel are at increased risk (MTHFR, CBS, COMT etc) , 

In addition there is a large number of existing health conditions that can disrupt methylation (liver disease, kidney disease, hypothyroidism, autoimmunity, gut disturbances, cancer, metabolic syndrome, alcohol dependance, drug addiction, toxin overload. 

So while, yes deficiency of B12 is one of many factors, it is not the only one and a supplementation of methylcobalamin is a cheap prophylactic. 

Edited 17 hours ago by Michael569

[Jodistrict]

11 hours ago, AION said:

I care about animals. But I care about humans too ..

Truth is that vegan diet is not our natural diet otherwise it wouldn’t be that difficult to get it right. 
 

Even with all the pills and shit people still have difficulty getting it right. At the end of the day we have to eat something alive to stay alive. That is how this universe works. Snake that eats its own tail. 

Vegetarianism is a more natural diet, and you can still get animal protein with milk.  It is a sattvic diet practiced by holy men in India for centuries.  Veganism sounds extreme and unbalanced.   I prefer ancient wisdom over modern developments.  

[Emerald]

6 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

Vegetarianism is a more natural diet, and you can still get animal protein with milk.  It is a sattvic diet practiced by holy men in India for centuries.  Veganism sounds extreme and unbalanced.   I prefer ancient wisdom over modern developments.  

Veganism is just Vegetarianism minus two ingredients (milk and eggs). They're about the same level of restriction, which is not restrictive at all. Vegetarians and Vegans can eat most things and there's plenty of close or better substitutes. And 95% of whole foods are Vegan friendly anyway.

And I honestly prefer the Vegan dairy options compared to the regular dairy options with the exception of cheese, which is difficult to imitate with plant-based ingredients. Yet again, I've only tried a few brands of Vegan cheese. Maybe there are some great ones out there.

But on the Vegan diet you can eat pretty much the same thing as in the omnivorous diet. Like if I wanted to go to the store and get ice cream or pizza, I could do that now. So, there's no sense of restriction.

And the ice cream is genuinely better than dairy ice cream (as is the yogurt, oat milk, and the coffee creamer), and the pizza is proximal to non-Vegan pizza.

I can even have meat that tastes and feels like meat, though I don't really enjoy Vegan or non-Vegan hamburgers or sausages. So, I don't eat them much unless they're the only Vegan option at a restaurant. There's even Vegan salmon and tuna sushi that I get every now and again, which is pretty good.

That said, I've been trying to keep my diet as a whole food diet as much as possible unless I'm eating at a restaurant. And I am plenty satisfied with that. 

But going Vegan was really only giving up 4 foods that I really enjoy... salmon, eel, steak, and cheese.  

The rest either have adequate or better substitutes, or I never liked them much in first place.

[Ero]

Just an added perspective: Veganism is very much a privileged diet. When a person makes in a month what you spend in a single shopping spree in WholeFoods and what not, it's not really feasible. Especially when you don't have access to stores with "replacements" which are most of times 2x the price the originals. I totally sympathize with the environmental impact and health considerations of being Vegan. But you have to remember large parts of the world don't even have consistent meals. 

[Something Funny]

40 minutes ago, Ero said:

Just an added perspective: Veganism is very much a privileged diet. When a person makes in a month what you spend in a single shopping spree in WholeFoods and what not, it's not really feasible. Especially when you don't have access to stores with "replacements" which are most of times 2x the price the originals. I totally sympathize with the environmental impact and health considerations of being Vegan. But you have to remember large parts of the world don't even have consistent meals. 

Do you mind explaining why you think so? Why would replacing meat, egg, and cheese, which are super expensive, with lentils, chickpeas, and bean be more expensive? I have only committed to a full vegan diet a few months ago and my food costs stayed more or less the same (about 200-300$ per month). Whole foods / eco / organic foods is a separate thing. It's not exclusive to veganism you can eat only organic foods as an omnivore and you can eat only junk food and noodles as a vegan.

You don't need any fancy meat or cheese replacements. Those are mostly just a rate snack. Just like a meat eater would go to a restaurant and order burger once in a while, a vegan will go to a restaurant and order a vegan burger once in a while. Nobody uses those products as staple foods in their diet.

40 minutes ago, Ero said:

But you have to remember large parts of the world don't even have consistent meals. 

I think poorer parts of the world are actually much closer to vegan diets, even if they are not strict vegans. Meat consumption is the highest in rich, western countries.

Edited 16 hours ago by Something Funny

[Schizophonia]

6 hours ago, Something Funny said:

Look, I am glad that you've found a new hobby in reading Freud but this is just one little perspective out of a hundred. And its not even the best one.

No, it don't.

You can eventually say it's a more or less holistic pov from one of the four quadrants of ken wilber.

 

[Something Funny]

@Schizophonia I am not familiar with ken wilber's quadrants. What you wrote didn't seem holistic. True on some level - yes, but definitely not taking the whole picture into perspective.

[Schizophonia]

4 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

Do you mind explaining why you think so? Why would replacing meat, egg, and cheese, which are super expensive, with lentils, chickpeas, and bean be more expensive? I have only committed to a full vegan diet a few months ago and my food costs stayed more or less the same (about 200-300$ per month). Whole foods / eco / organic foods is a separate thing. It's not exclusive to veganism you can eat only organic foods as an omnivore and you can eat only junk food and noodles as a vegan.

You will develop intestinal problems and deficiencies if you rely primarily on beans, 100% guaranteed
It's also disgusting.

4 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

 

I think poorer parts of the world are actually much closer to vegan diets, even if they are not strict vegans. Meat consumption is the highest in rich, western countries.

They are also smaller and have lower IQ.

 

[Something Funny]

1 minute ago, Schizophonia said:

You will develop intestinal problems and deficiencies if you rely primarily on beans, 100% guaranteed
It's also disgusting.

They are also smaller and have lower IQ.

 

what are you even talking about?

Sorry, I am really trying to be nice here, but you guys just have no respect. I am done entertaining this nonsense.

[Schizophonia]

4 hours ago, Emerald said:

Meat consumption is linked with an increased risk of all-cause mortality primarily because of the saturated fat consumption. And that's borne out in many studies and meta-analyses.

That's why Vegans bring it up, because it's the #1 death bringer to humans in wealthy nations.

The issues people bring up with the Vegan diet only happen if people aren't eating enough calories.

And you don't find many Vegans dying because of "nutrient deficiencies" unless the person has an eating disorder.

Those who eat a plant-based diet tend to live longer lives with fewer strokes and heart attacks compared to meat eaters.

The population with the highest life expectancy (Hong Kong, Japan, France, Switzerland, Australia, etc.) are also those who eat the most meat and animal products in general.

 

[Schizophonia]

1 minute ago, Something Funny said:

what are you even talking about?

Sorry, I am really trying to be nice here, but you guys just have no respect. I am done entertaining this nonsense.

Yes your boiled beans are disgusting to eat, are not very nutritious and are indigestible.
It is impossible to count on beans unless you have the energy intake of a 5 year old.

You're just hurting yourself.

10 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

@Schizophonia I am not familiar with ken wilber's quadrants. What you wrote didn't seem holistic. True on some level - yes, but definitely not taking the whole picture into perspective.

It's extremely holistic.

If you have another system then you can explain it to us. 👍

[Something Funny]

1 minute ago, Schizophonia said:

Yes your boiled beans are disgusting to eat, are not very nutritious and are indigestible.
It is impossible to count on beans unless you have the energy intake of a 5 year old.

You're just hurting yourself.

I am not talking about that. I don't care what you think about stupid beans. I am talking about you being a racist.

 

[AION]

2 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

Vegetarianism is a more natural diet, and you can still get animal protein with milk.  It is a sattvic diet practiced by holy men in India for centuries.  Veganism sounds extreme and unbalanced.   I prefer ancient wisdom over modern developments.  

Ancient wisdom is not always right. I wouldn't take Indian advice on diet to be honest. I won't go into details but you can fill in the blanks. The thing with diet is that people are defending their food choices like it is their religion. People are getting angry over food. It is not right. People should listen to their body. I'm an intuitive eater and it works out great.

Edited 15 hours ago by AION

[Nivsch]

18 minutes ago, AION said:

I'm an intuitive eater and it works out great

I found out 90% veganism works for me because legumes and grains aren't good to me mentally (make me more stressed or anxious so I eat them in tiny amounts) so I take the proteins primarily from fish once a week and high quality almond desserts and the rest are fruits, vegs, roots and healthy vegan fats and even inside the roots and fat groups I know what makes me feel better mentally and what less.

Edited 15 hours ago by Nivsch

[AION]

2 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I found out 90% veganism works for me because legumes and grains aren't good to me mentally (make me more stressed and moody so I eat them in tiny amounts) so I take the proteins primarily from fish once a week and almonds and the rest are fruits, vegs and roots.

That sounds good if that works out for you. I'm not a big volume eater. I prefer high protein fresh cut meats, with 2-3x the veggies and healthy carbs, topped off with nuts, seeds and fruits. And because I eat such dense foods, I don't have to eat a lot. Mediterranean diet works the best for me because my heritage is also from there. Some people can't thrive better on certain cuisines. If you are Caucasian, it is more difficult to survive on vegan diet, because Caucasian genes are accustomed to meat consumption. At the end you have to find what works best for you and it is important to be honest about what your body says to you about your diet and not be in denial about it.

[Schizophonia]

2 minutes ago, AION said:

That sounds good if that works out for you. I'm not a big volume eater. I prefer high protein fresh cut meats, with 2-3x the veggies and healthy carbs, topped off with nuts, seeds and fruits. And because I eat such dense foods, I don't have to eat a lot. Mediterranean diet works the best for me because my heritage is also from there. Some people can't thrive better on certain cuisines. If you are Caucasian, it is more difficult to survive on vegan diet, because Caucasian genes are accustomed to meat consumption. At the end you have to find what works best for you and it is important to be honest about what your body says to you about your diet and not be in denial about it.

Mediterranean diet is full of seafood, meat and dairy products from sheep and to a lesser extent goats.