Model of development better than SD?!

[WonderSeeker]

Most of you have not heard about this model.

Disciples of Clair Graves's work did a helluva job popularizing it into Spiral Dynamics. 

But not so much with Kazimierz Dabrowski's theory of positive disintegration (TPD).

Yet, this model deserves to be as well-known IMO.

This is for you if you are:

• gifted
• an HSP
• extrasensory
• alienated by society in general

The theory places emotional intelligence (EQ) over cognitive (IQ) in terms of real transformation to get to levels of consciousness of mystics and sages.

The theory says if you're going though deep emotional struggle as you try to make sense of self and society, it's a massive sign you're actually growing.

As you develop you define your values more and more sharply and begin living them more closely. This is what forms a human personality, as opposed to fitting-in.

I could go on and on.

Here's a couple resources if you're curious.

Also can't recommend the book by Sal Mendaglio enough.

I'm making a big study out of this work and plan to teach it online in combination with trauma release.

@Leo Gura you should check this out. Pairs well with SD and EDT.

Edited January 4 by WonderSeeker

[TheAlchemist]

I agree about the individuation part. It seems a certain sense of alienation can be very fruitful for the development of individuated existence.

Not finding a community to belong to, having identity-crises, self-doubt etc. can all be healthy signs of coming into contact with ones (sometimes painful) individual subjectivity. 

A model that specifically explores the unfoldment of subjectivity would be quite interesting. Although it would need to have a disintegration point where the model must fail, since it can't really account for or model the subjectivity itself once it has unfolded.

Edited January 4 by TheAlchemist

[Carl-Richard]

Yes. Resonates a lot with my view of myself (except the gifted part 💩🙉💩😉; mandatory humble signalling).

[Fluran]

pretty juicy

[Nilsi]

It sounds like a textbook rationalization for individuals who fail to properly integrate into society, reveling in their own antisocial tendencies.

The video smugly dismissed salespeople as mere manipulators, tricking others into buying things they don't need. This stereotype is as tired as it is reductive. The true art of sales lies in connecting people with products or services that genuinely improve their lives - a skill far more challenging and rewarding than it’s given credit for. Unless you’re peddling outright scams, like Jordan Belfort’s penny stocks, being an effective salesperson demands aligning your actions and values. This is how you truly reach what they referred to as "Level 5."

Effectiveness in the real world requires empathy - not some vague abstraction, but the ability to genuinely connect with "normal" people and inspire them to join your cause. Even MLK, who was name-dropped in that video, mastered this. He possessed a profound understanding of human nature, navigating the delicate balance between lofty idealism and practical implementation. That’s how real change happens - not through condescension, but through connection and persuasion.

Edited January 5 by Nilsi

[WonderSeeker]

14 hours ago, Nilsi said:

It sounds like a textbook rationalization for individuals who fail to properly integrate into society, reveling in their own antisocial tendencies.

Brother, that's actually part of the model.

At Level I you have some people who maladjust to society in the negative direction (pyschopaths, sociopaths).

But you can also have people who are positively maladjusted.

These are the ones who start progressing through the levels.

Doesn't mean they cram themselves into their homes and do nothing.

You stay in society as you learn to make more sense of it and your emotions.

14 hours ago, Nilsi said:

The video smugly dismissed salespeople as mere manipulators, tricking others into buying things they don't need. This stereotype is as tired as it is reductive. The true art of sales lies in connecting people with products or services that genuinely improve their lives - a skill far more challenging and rewarding than it’s given credit for. Unless you’re peddling outright scams, like Jordan Belfort’s penny stocks, being an effective salesperson demands aligning your actions and values. This is how you truly reach what they referred to as "Level 5."

Effectiveness in the real world requires empathy - not some vague abstraction, but the ability to genuinely connect with "normal" people and inspire them to join your cause. Even MLK, who was name-dropped in that video, mastered this. He possessed a profound understanding of human nature, navigating the delicate balance between lofty idealism and practical implementation.

Interesting.

I've been in sales for a year.

There's some truth to what you said about the stereotype.

However, I literally "winged" with some of the top reps in the D2D industry last year.

They're fuckin machines and ABSOLUTELY will act nice and do anything to get the sale.

No different than a sexy stripper girl walking up and sedeucing guys at the strip club.

Then you have genuine dudes who connect with people and find real Win/Wins.

I have a friend in furniture sales who does exactly this.

Then, yes, you have MLK 'selling' millions on his vision.

This sales thing was quite the tangent...

14 hours ago, Nilsi said:

The video smugly dismissed...

That’s how real change happens - not through condescension, but through connection and persuasion.

Watching the above videos is like licking a 4x10 foot popsicle that comprises the whole theory.

Like any other model you need to study it deeply.

Or you'll easily misunderstand it.

Edited January 6 by WonderSeeker

[WonderSeeker]

On 1/4/2025 at 4:24 PM, TheAlchemist said:

I agree about the individuation part. It seems a certain sense of alienation can be very fruitful for the development of individuated existence.

It's funny cuz I feel like I'm living two lives where on the left hand I mingle with society.

But on the right I explore myself and my passions deeply.

On 1/4/2025 at 4:24 PM, TheAlchemist said:

A model that specifically explores the unfoldment of subjectivity would be quite interesting. Although it would need to have a disintegration point where the model must fail, since it can't really account for or model the subjectivity itself once it has unfolded.

Yeah the model sort of breaks down around Level V.

[WonderSeeker]

On 1/4/2025 at 5:27 PM, Carl-Richard said:

Yes. Resonates a lot with my view of myself (except the gifted part 💩🙉💩😉; mandatory humble signaling).

As they say, show don't tell

[PenguinPablo]

@WonderSeeker Personally when I did sales I def felt like I had to lean into that cut throat manipulativeness to make progress. Its the nature of the game. Some people have no moral qualms about it. When I would bring it up to them, their reaction was like "that's life" and dismissive. 

For me it took about 1 year to more or less become myself again and uproot the manipulativeness I developed. 

I worked in D2D also. And yes the best guys that I worked with were very manipulative and dishonest. I do think there are people that are effective without being that way but overwhelmingly not what I observed in D2D from the best. 

 

The best way to get people to make a decision now is through scarcity and urgency. I remember doing this to some latino immigrants telling them the promotion for a Samsung phone was going to end soon and that this was the top of the line phone and I overhear them telling their family members frantically about it. 😂😂😂😂😂 They ended up buying the phone. 

But for me these cheap psychological trips, in the name of profit and capitalism are not genuine and where we need to move towards imo.

Edited January 29 by PenguinPablo

[Ramanujan]

@Carl-Richard oo carl that is a good one

[Ramanujan]

@WonderSeeker how many levels are there in that system

[Aaron p]

Heres what I got:

When it comes to **self-improvement and spirituality**, not all models are equally advanced or effective. Below, I’ve ranked the **most relevant and superior models** to Spiral Dynamics, focusing on their depth, applicability, and alignment with personal and spiritual growth. I’ve dropped models that are less suited for this purpose (e.g., Cynefin, Holacracy, Dreyfus Model, Adaptive Cycle).

 

---

 

### **Ranked Models for Self-Improvement and Spirituality**

 

#### **1. Integral Theory (Ken Wilber)**  

- **Description**: A holistic framework that integrates all dimensions of human experience (individual, collective, interior, exterior) and stages of development. It includes Spiral Dynamics as one of its components but goes beyond it by incorporating spirituality, culture, and systems thinking.  

- **Why It’s Better**: More comprehensive and spiritually inclusive than Spiral Dynamics, addressing both personal and collective evolution.  

 

---

 

#### **2. Theory U (Otto Scharmer)**  

- **Description**: A process for deep transformation, emphasizing "presencing" (connecting to the source of inspiration) and co-creating the future. It combines mindfulness, systems thinking, and leadership.  

- **Why It’s Better**: Focuses on inner awareness and collective spiritual growth, making it highly relevant for personal and societal transformation.  

 

---

 

#### **3. Kegan’s Stages of Adult Development**  

- **Description**: A model of psychological evolution, describing how adults progress through stages of meaning-making, from ego-centric to self-transforming mindsets.  

- **Why It’s Better**: Deeply insightful for personal growth, especially in understanding how people evolve their sense of self and relationships.  

 

---

 

#### **4. Loevinger’s Stages of Ego Development**  

- **Description**: Maps the evolution of the ego through stages, from impulsive to integrated, focusing on self-awareness and interpersonal maturity.  

- **Why It’s Better**: Offers a clear path for personal development, particularly in understanding emotional and cognitive growth.  

 

---

 

#### **5. Graves' Emergent Cyclical Levels of Existence (ECLET)**  

- **Description**: The original theory behind Spiral Dynamics, focusing on how value systems emerge in response to life conditions.  

- **Why It’s Better**: More academically rigorous and less commercialized than Spiral Dynamics, providing a solid foundation for understanding human development.  

 

---

 

#### **6. Teal Organizations (Frederic Laloux)**  

- **Description**: A model of organizational evolution, culminating in the "Teal" stage, characterized by self-management, wholeness, and evolutionary purpose.  

 

Conclusion

For self-improvement and spirituality, Integral Theory and Theory U are the most advanced and holistic, offering deep insights into personal and collective evolution. The others are valuable but more niche or less comprehensive. Spiral Dynamics remains useful but is surpassed by these models in depth and spiritual relevance.

-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-

Links to overview descriptions and free courses to the top 3:

 

### **1. Integral Theory (Ken Wilber)**  

#### **YouTube Overview**:  

- **Title**: *"Introduction to Integral Theory in 10 Minutes"*  

- **Link**: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G8QJCjJ5AI

- **Description**: A concise and clear introduction to Integral Theory, covering its core concepts like the Four Quadrants, stages of development, and the AQAL framework.  

 

#### **Free Course**:  

- **Title**: *"Integral Life Practice Starter Kit"*  

- **Platform**: Integral Life (Free Resources)  

- **Link**: https://integrallife.com/integral-life-practice-starter-kit/

- **Description**: A free introductory course that provides tools and practices for applying Integral Theory to personal growth, spirituality, and daily life.  

 

---

 

### **2. Theory U (Otto Scharmer)**  

#### **YouTube Overview**:  

- **Title**: *"Theory U Explained in 5 Minutes"*  

- **Link**: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E8j4gyN4kE

- **Description**: A quick and engaging explanation of Theory U, including its core principles like presencing, co-creating, and the U-shaped process of transformation.  

 

#### **Free Course**:  

- **Title**: *"U.Lab: Transforming Business, Society, and Self"*  

- **Platform**: edX (MITx)  

- **Link**: https://www.edx.org/course/u-lab-transforming-business-society-and-self

- **Description**: A free, self-paced course by Otto Scharmer and MIT that guides you through the Theory U process, with practical tools for personal and societal change.  

 

---

 

### **3. Kegan’s Stages of Adult Development**  

#### **YouTube Overview**:  

- **Title**: *"Kegan’s Stages of Adult Development Explained"*  

- **Link**: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z6C8R2lQ9o

- **Description**: A clear and concise breakdown of Kegan’s stages, from the socialized mind to the self-transforming mind, and how they apply to personal growth.  

 

#### **Free Course**:  

- **Title**: *"Adult Development: An Overview"*  

- **Platform**: Coursera (Free Audit Option)  

- **Link**: https://www.coursera.org/learn/adult-development

- **Description**: A free course that introduces Kegan’s stages and their application to leadership, relationships, and personal development.  

[Aaron p]

here, shit the links are fucked lemme edit it

[Aaron p]

Ah fuck it just look here https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/34333-courseprogram-integral-life-practice-kit-ken-wilber-integral/

[Rafael Thundercat]

@WonderSeeker thank you for sharing, I am very interessted in the advancements upon this work. Can Tag me whenever you find good stuff about it. I am working in pair with a woman in Holotropic Breathing and Trauma Informed Therapies so this material is revelant to our work. 

 

[Rafael Thundercat]

@WonderSeeker the first video made me remember of how life was resonably easy when I was a Mórmon. In a sense I was conforming with the hivemind of Mórmon and had no trouble knowing that I was part of the True people, the ones to be exalted in the Millenium when Christ came back. Life was good, I could keep in that, marry a nice Mórmon girl, be a teacher or maybe even now I would be a Bishop. But my Aim for Truth was bigger than conforming and one day I saw that I could not lie anyomore to myself, I put all my Mórmon manuals, Books and even the Bible and Book of Mórmon in the Trash bin, all in one swap  closed the bit and walkes home, now I was with no epistemic ground anymore. Of course I created other meanings and worldviews but never more that I was certain of all existence. 

Life can feel easy in conformism. But one must feel that the bill will come in the end. 

[WonderSeeker]

9 hours ago, Aaron p said:

here, shit the links are fucked lemme edit it

what kind of AI response was that hahaha

8 hours ago, Rafael Thundercat said:

@WonderSeeker the first video made me remember of how life was resonably easy when I was a Mórmon. In a sense I was conforming with the hivemind of Mórmon and had no trouble knowing that I was part of the True people, the ones to be exalted in the Millenium when Christ came back. Life was good...

Life can feel easy in conformism. But one must feel that the bill will come in the end. 

Woah that's wild. But that's a perfect example of being Positively Integrated. Life is simpler and functional. Nothing wrong with it per se. 

Where would you place yourself now having removed yourself from the Morman way?

On 1/30/2025 at 5:34 AM, Ramanujan said:

@WonderSeeker how many levels are there in that system

There's five. 

I. Positive Integration 

II. Unilevel Disintegration 

III. Spontaneous Multilevel Disintegration (no going back)

IV. Coordinated Multilevel Disintegration

V. Positive Reintegration

Level five pairs well with the tenth Ox-hearding picture. Master returns to the marketplace.

On 1/28/2025 at 7:38 PM, PenguinPablo said:

@WonderSeeker Personally when I did sales I def felt like I had to lean into that cut throat manipulativeness to make progress. Its the nature of the game. Some people have no moral qualms about it. When I would bring it up to them, their reaction was like "that's life" and dismissive. 

For me it took about 1 year to more or less become myself again and uproot the manipulativeness I developed. 

I worked in D2D also. And yes the best guys that I worked with were very manipulative and dishonest. I do think there are people that are effective without being that way but overwhelmingly not what I observed in D2D from the best. 

 

The best way to get people to make a decision now is through scarcity and urgency. I remember doing this to some latino immigrants telling them the promotion for a Samsung phone was going to end soon and that this was the top of the line phone and I overhear them telling their family members frantically about it. 😂😂😂😂😂 They ended up buying the phone. 

But for me these cheap psychological trips, in the name of profit and capitalism are not genuine and where we need to move towards imo.

1,000% with the scarcity thing.

It feels so wrong when you know they're psychologically weak and you "sell" them.

I regret a couple sales where I pressured them. 

[Rafael Thundercat]

4 hours ago, WonderSeeker said:

Where would you place yourself now having removed yourself from the Morman way?

Somehow I position myself at level 5. I mean in this exact moment, maybe new Realizations in the future this year may change me in ways I cant predic. But after being in the Mórmon  Silo or Box I had my time Studing Osho, being a Clubber, Drunk in the Weekends Parties lot till the point of not being fun anymore than I found Ayahuasca Circles and had some mindfucks for around 7 years, became a Percussionist in this Circles,learned to sing Indigenous Songs and be a Guadian in the works, till the point I realized that being exposed in this so called Healing circles became counter-productive since I am a sponge to energies( had even being attacked by a Bootha or Ghost in liminal state dream) So now I am quite satisfacted in just being a Human even if I know this character have limited time expiration and the Gargantular mouth of Infinte is waiting to eat me. Ah I also did 5Meo 2 times one was mild ans second was hardcore and I was present while a older person passed away in the process. So, yeah I had my share of craziness that today even Mórmon BS is nothing more than Harry Potter Stories. Ah today is Sunday, I was supposed to be at the Church by now 9:14 but I will just drink Coffee and relax. 

[WonderSeeker]

6 hours ago, Rafael Thundercat said:

Somehow I position myself at level 5. I mean in this exact moment, maybe new Realizations in the future this year may change me in ways I cant predic. But after being in the Mórmon  Silo or Box I had my time Studing Osho, being a Clubber, Drunk in the Weekends Parties lot till the point of not being fun anymore than I found Ayahuasca Circles and had some mindfucks for around 7 years, became a Percussionist in this Circles,learned to sing Indigenous Songs and be a Guadian in the works, till the point I realized that being exposed in this so called Healing circles became counter-productive since I am a sponge to energies( had even being attacked by a Bootha or Ghost in liminal state dream) So now I am quite satisfacted in just being a Human even if I know this character have limited time expiration and the Gargantular mouth of Infinte is waiting to eat me. Ah I also did 5Meo 2 times one was mild ans second was hardcore and I was present while a older person passed away in the process. So, yeah I had my share of craziness that today even Mórmon BS is nothing more than Harry Potter Stories. Ah today is Sunday, I was supposed to be at the Church by now 9:14 but I will just drink Coffee and relax. 

Bro skipped church! 😂

Definately a pro move. You must be from Utah. People I've met there are either Morman, morman outcast refugees, or New Age ESPs like Teal Swan. 

[Rafael Thundercat]

3 hours ago, WonderSeeker said:

Bro skipped church! 😂

Definately a pro move. You must be from Utah. People I've met there are either Morman, morman outcast refugees, or New Age ESPs like Teal Swan. 

Luckly I am not from Utah, one friend lived there and grant me was a boring place to live. Why would be?