Humans and Islam

[Fluran]

christianity and islam, they are all good when it came first, 

 

patriarchy is egalitarian communism because females were often used as currencies in red stage world

 

pre-islam arabia world, wow, tribes slitting throats on each other, genocidal and vengence, revenges, everytime. wow!

[Fluran]

islam lost it's beauty when the west got industrialized and colonize around the world

islam has been a place of science and algebra, but then lost it's place.

they also persecuted sufism.

 

the consequence is in islam world, arabia endlessly betraying and fighting against each other.

it has lost unifying philosophy and governing principle which sufi metaphysics is likely responsible for. 

[PurpleTree]

3 hours ago, Fluran said:

christianity and islam, they are all good when it came first, 

I don’t know if it’s true but i heard that

Christianity in the beginning was very different to jewish and roman culture. That’s why they were persecuted. Women were very integrated in the beginning and it was very spiritual and not about possessions and anything. Not about conquering.

While Islam in the beginning was very warlike and about conquering.

 

This guy talks about early Christians in the Roman empire.

 

Edited Sunday at 10:24 AM by PurpleTree

[Breakingthewall]

The problem for the evolution of Islam is that the Koran was supposedly written by God directly, so any interpretation that deviates from what is written is blasphemy. The idea of punishment is repeated a lot in the Koran, it is an intimidating book that subjugates. Christianity has subjugated society, but there have been movements such as the Enlightenment that have denied this, and this seed has been planted in people's minds and has been germinating little by little. There has also been Protestantism that has taken power away from the corrupt church.

Already in the 19th century in Europe, a lot of educated people thought that Christianity was superstition and they could say so openly. Islam is much more rigid, saying that is going against God and condemning you to hell. 

Since the Renaissance in Europe, it has been considered that the human being is the measure of everything, it is an idea that comes from the Romans and that re-enters the minds. God is necessary because after death comes paradise or hell, but the protagonist in this life is man. Jesus says: to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's. In Islam everything is God's, man is nothing, a slave.

Edited Sunday at 10:59 AM by Breakingthewall

[Twentyfirst]

To make distinctions between major religions is simply fallacy. Why not realize people are into two categories? Believers and non believers. 

Oh wait theres a third. Awakening. 

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Twentyfirst said:

To make distinctions between major religions is simply fallacy. Why not realize people are into two categories? Believers and non believers. 

Oh wait theres a third. Awakening. 

What I ask is how the Islamic societies could evolve. seems that as humans it is objectively more desirable to have greater mental freedom in order to evolve as a whole. Where is human society in general headed and what is the role of Islamic societies, which are a significant part in numbers, in this evolution?

Western society is very imperfect, but it is constantly moving. What is the path that Islamic society wants to take? To be always angry and offended, trying to appear to be saints?

[James123]

23 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Islam, regardless of debates about its spirituality, Sufism, its level of spiritual truth, is an ideology that creates an enormous level of abuse and domination of men over women. Millions of women are forced into something as transcendent for a human being as marriage using violence. It doesn't seem like a very nice thing. It also generates enormous hypocrisy. Muslims are a bunch of fakes, since according to their religion they should all be saints, and any deviation is despicable. Shame and contempt for themselves as humans makes them false, twisted, dark. In short, it's a big piece of shit.

Ancient fanatic Christianity is negative and limiting, but in the end the message of Christianity is: love. That of Islam is: obey. That of Buddhism is: realize yourself. One of them seems quite negative. What could be its evolution?

Deeply check out sufism. You are wrong. Islam is obeying only to Allah. Even prophet Muhammad said i am just a messenger of Allah. Read Quran.

[Breakingthewall]

16 minutes ago, James123 said:

Deeply check out sufism. You are wrong. Islam is obeying only to Allah. Even prophet Muhammad said i am just a messenger of Allah. Read Quran.

Mahoma said that he was illiterate and that the Koran was dictated to him directly by God, which is 100% false. Bad start

[James123]

11 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Mahoma said that he was illiterate and that the Koran was dictated to him directly by God, which is 100% false. Bad start

Quran is writing by insights. Directly from deep meditation. İmo, you have heard or watch so much tv. Go read by yourself. People are just fools, but book is different. Specially sufism. 

[Scholar]

23 hours ago, Nilsi said:

The problem with Islam is that its eschatology is so radical, and the descriptions of paradise and hell so vivid and extreme, that the afterlife becomes the central focus of everything. This fixation leads to paranoiac behaviors, like cloaking women from head to toe to eliminate even the slightest chance of sin’s seductive influence.

And as psychoanalysis teaches us, repression always leads to neurosis and often manifests in precisely the most extreme form of what has been repressed, in deeply ironic ways. So, it’s no surprise that some of the most repressive and God-fearing cultures often produce the most godless acts of violence and depravity.

This is precisely true.

That which is repressed must be denied in oneself. And by denying it, one gives that part of oneself power to influence on from the shadows.

It's a profoundly simple psychological reality, yet it's impact is utterly neglected by contemporary society.

 

The more you condemn others for immorality, the more incapable you will be of recognizing your own immorality, because the cost of recognition become higher. 

The one who is without sin shall cast the first stone.

 

Recognizing our imperfections is the first step to freeing ourselves from it's control. This is why the contemporary cultural manifestation of stage green can be so toxic, because of how profoundly blind to it's own evil it can be when it acts from a position of judgment and peer influence. The greatest insight should be that oneself is deeply flawed. The reason why you have to feel true compassion even towards your enemy, towards those you consider evil, is because it will be the first step to understanding them and their imperfection. And if you understand their imperfection, and recognize it as such, you will be able to recognize it in yourself in equal, sometimes even greater, measure.

[Breakingthewall]

15 minutes ago, James123 said:

Quran is writing by insights. Directly from deep meditation. İmo, you have heard or watch so much tv. Go read by yourself. People are just fools, but book is different. Specially sufism. 

No, was dictated by the archangel saint Gabriel, if you want to come here saying that smarty things about watching too much tv, first learn a bit. I read Quran, not totally, but part, imo it's a copy of bible in it's base

Yes, I know, people are just fools, not like you, oh enlightened. Patience is needed 

Edited Sunday at 09:11 PM by Breakingthewall

[James123]

3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

No, was dictated by the archangel saint Gabriel, if you want to come here saying that smarty things about watching too much tv, first learn a bit. I read Quran, not totally, but part, imo it's a copy of bible in it's base

Yes, I know, people are just fools, not like you, oh enlightened. Patience is needed 

What should prophet Muhammad will say to people, i am god and god is nothing? İnfinite? People were killing baby girls because they have born as a girl at that time. İmagine the mindset of those years.

[Twentyfirst]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

What I ask is how the Islamic societies could evolve. seems that as humans it is objectively more desirable to have greater mental freedom in order to evolve as a whole. Where is human society in general headed and what is the role of Islamic societies, which are a significant part in numbers, in this evolution?

Western society is very imperfect, but it is constantly moving. What is the path that Islamic society wants to take? To be always angry and offended, trying to appear to be saints?

 

You can study history to when Islamic societies were the superpower and how things worked

Human society is headed into some technological age I guess. The role of Islamic societies now is to basically be misunderstood severely. In the future they will be the largest demographic by far so all companies will have to kiss their ass if they want profits

I am not sure what path they want to take. I don't think they want to change. Western society is literally always violent and dresses up as human rights advocates known for hypocrisy 

[Breakingthewall]

6 minutes ago, James123 said:

What should prophet Muhammad will say to people, i am god and god is nothing? İnfinite? People were killing baby girls because they have born as a girl at that time. İmagine the mindset of those years.

Look Buddha or jesus, were previous and they didn't tell the people how to treat the slaves

[Twentyfirst]

4 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Look Buddha or jesus, were previous and they didn't tell the people how to treat the slaves

 

[James123]

5 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Look Buddha or jesus, were previous and they didn't tell the people how to treat the slaves

Slaves was popular those years. Prophet Muhammad release his all slaves. First, person who become Muslim was who was a slave of Muhammad and saved him from christians. 

[Breakingthewall]

On 5/1/2025 at 2:03 AM, Raze said:

No they didn’t, the Vatican has said many times hell is real. 
 

https://www.ncronline.org/vatican/vatican-claim-pope-denied-hells-existence-unreliable

Interesting. Hell has been the threatening and radicalizing force of Christianity. The most incredible thing is that many people genuinely terrified by hell managed to steal, own slaves and kill, but all in the name of Jesus.

[Raze]

7 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Look Buddha or jesus, were previous and they didn't tell the people how to treat the slaves

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Words related to dasa are found in early Buddhist texts, such as dāso na pabbājetabbo, which Davids and Stede translate as "the slave cannot become a Bhikkhu".[53] This restriction on who could become a Buddhist monastic is found in Vinaya Pitakam i.93, Digha Nikaya, Majjhima Nikāya, Tibetan Bhiksukarmavakya and Upasampadajnapti.[53][54]

In Buddhist scriptures, slavery is a backdrop to the narratives, and dasas (slaves) were among the donations to the monastic community. Various terms were used, like "bondsmen," "proper slave," and "proper bondman", and individuals were treated as property and could be donated as such to monks and monasteries. In various Vinayas, The Buddha permits the offering and utilization of household servants and slaves, along with land, mats, livestock, tools, and medicinal items. At times, slaves were tasked with carrying out actions that were explicitly prohibited for monks

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Luke 17:7-10 

7 ‘Who among you would say to your slave who has just come in from ploughing or tending sheep in the field, “Come here at once and take your place at the table”? 8 Would you not rather say to him, “Prepare supper for me, put on your apron and serve me while I eat and drink; later you may eat and drink”? 9 Do you thank the slave for doing what was commanded? 10 So you also, when you have done all that you were ordered to do, say, “We are worthless slaves; we have done only what we ought to have done!

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“Slaves, obey your human masters ” (Col 3:22)

 

[Breakingthewall]

24 minutes ago, Raze said:

 

Thanks for the clarification. Yes in that times slavery was common, and these allusions do exist, but the Quran explicitly speaks of how to treat slaves . This is the direct word of God, then anything else is blasphemy . Anyway, is obvious that the message of Christianity or Buddhism, even if misinterpreted, is a spiritual message. The message of the Quran is in great part social, which is a key difference.

Edited yesterday at 05:45 AM by Breakingthewall

[Raze]

12 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yes in that times slavery was common, and these allusions do exist, but the Quran explicitly speaks of how to treat slaves and the right to take sexual slaves. This is the direct word of God, then anything else is blasphemy .

- those aren’t allusions, those are specific statements of treatment 

- orthodox Buddhists consider the Buddha the final teacher, and Christian’s consider Jesus god

- slavery was common during the time of the Quran as well

- again, you’re ignoring that islam can be interpreted just like any religion, here is a counter example

 

Quote

A slave-girl cannot be raped, as according to this ruling by al-Shafi reflected in various fiqh,

Al-Shafi’i said, “If a man forcefully acquired a slave girl and then has intercourse with her thereafter, and he is not ignorant, the slave girl is taken away from him, he is fined, and he is punished for adultery.” (Kitab al-umm)

Which is based on the narration where Umar commands Khalid bin Walid to stone to death Dirar ibn al-Azwar who rapes a captured girl. Sexual contact with a slave girl outside of marriage will be punished with zina and if it is through rape, she shall be freed immediately and he will be killed or exiled depending on the jurist.

And do not, in order to gain some of the fleeting pleasures of this worldly life, coerce your [slave] maidens into whoredom if they happen to be desirous of marriage; (4:33)

This verse relates not only to prostituting a slave girl to others but also forcing her have sex with one's self. This verse was revealed when a slave girl came to the Prophet after her Master told her to have sex with others for money (Source: Asbab ul Nuzul, Al-Wahidi). She was beaten by him for objecting on the basis of the Quran. The Prophet outlaws the practice. But the restriction also applies in case of masters for the verse states,  if they happen to be desirous of marriage meaning, if they wish to remain virgins or chaste and marry a man other than their master. Raping one's slave girl is also condemned under the umbrella of abuse,

Whoever strikes his slave sharply or slaps him, then the expiation for the sin is to emancipate him.

Ergo the Quran does not allow men to take slave girls and have sex with them as if they were some sex toys meant for release. They must be firstly married upon consent. They must be given education, pocket money, etc. According to Shafi (Ma'araful Quran) and Maulana Muhammad Ali in their tafsirs, education and pocket money are binding upon masters if they wish to keep slaves. Muhammad also outlawed calling slaves slaves but to call them lads or lasses (sons and daughters) to humanize them. You cannot marry any slave of course as in accordance with 24:32,

AND [you ought to] marry the single from among you as well as such of your male and female slaves as are fit [for marriage].

 

slavery is not legal in all Muslim countries currently, though it’s practiced outside the law in some

Quote

Anyway, is obvious that the message of Christianity or Buddhism, even if misinterpreted, is a spiritual message. The message of the Quran is in great part social, which is a key difference.

Not really. Buddhism, Christianity, and Islam are all part spiritual messages part social messages. Buddhism has detailed instructions on how one should live and different social classes. The Bible as well especially in the Old Testament. This is a feature of enduring religions. 

Edited yesterday at 05:50 AM by Raze