Distinction between actuality and imagination/concepts

[Kairos]

16 minutes ago, The Crocodile said:

The sense of what's true is subjective, the Truth is not.

But beauty is subjective right ? 

How can you know something is objectively beautiful ?

[The Crocodile]

9 minutes ago, Kairos said:

But beauty is subjective right ? 

How can you know something is objectively beautiful ?

How can you know if something is objectively true?

[Breakingthewall]

26 minutes ago, The Crocodile said:

The sense of what's true is subjective, the Truth is not.

Choose one 

[Kairos]

@The Crocodile If something is consistently observable, measurable, and universally applicable it is objectively true (by definition)

For example GRAVITY .

Now if you want to play word-games like leo then idk how to debate you 😂😂😂

40 minutes ago, The Crocodile said:

 

 

Edited Monday at 04:44 PM by Kairos

[The Crocodile]

15 minutes ago, Kairos said:

@The Crocodile If something is consistently observable, measurable, and universally applicable it is objectively true (by definition)

For example GRAVITY .

Now if you want to play word-games like leo then idk how to debate you 😂😂😂

 

Beauty and Truth are both lights that can get shined through subjective lenses.

[The Crocodile]

23 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Choose one 

That's not how this works.

I could choose all of these over the ugly painting Leo was creaming his jeans over, because these are objectively more beautiful, except for perhaps the one of the angry prisoner.

But two things that are diversely different could both be in the same range of beauty-complex.

Or I could say the white birds are more beautiful than the orange-beaked birds, but that the orange-beaked birds have a background more conducive to social evolution.

[Kairos]

@The Crocodile dewd not cool I was expecting long paragraph reply from you denying gravity being objective 😂

55 minutes ago, The Crocodile said:

 

 

[Leo Gura]

Beauty has a subjective and objective component. Don't fall for the trap of making this a binary choice.

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, The Crocodile said:

That's not how this works.

I could choose all of these over the ugly painting Leo was creaming his jeans over, because these are objectively more beautiful, except for perhaps the one of the angry prisoner.

But two things that are diversely different could both be in the same range of beauty-complex.

Or I could say the white birds are more beautiful than the orange-beaked birds, but that the orange-beaked birds have a background more conducive to social evolution.

I wanted to give an example of where beauty is and where each person finds it. The first painting is beautiful because it evokes a sunset or sunrise and the contrasts between blue and red create a special feeling.

The second one, the heavy organic galactic samurai style armor contrasts vividly with the open eye with intelligent and alert expression, not aggressive, which gives it a rare beauty, and the magistral combination of colour 

the dreamlike landscape based on the Kaganawa wave is beautiful for its combination of color and its evocation of other dimensions.

The man in the jail is wonderful, look the shape of that hand, you can feel the heat, the oppression, and the shadow is wonderful.

The others two, as you said, the white is objectively beautiful because the colors and the shapes, the other because the evocation to the high.

Then, we could conclude the the beauty in those cases is a combination of pure combination of colour and shape in one side, and evocation to our unconscious mind in other. The other paint that Leo's liked has no meaning, it's abstract, then it possible beauty is only in the combination of colour and shapes, much more difficult, because any colour could be considered beautiful, and any shape too, like those paints that a monkey did, but in this painting you (or I) can perceive something special, the combination of the white in the exactly places with that pink gives a special melody ,the black arch in the center gives strength, the yellows give the precise light, and the blues the necessary depth. This only orange close the red arch give me a sensation like it's exactly where it has to be, and the light pink in the left upper corner gives space, relax the pressure 

 

Edited Monday at 06:17 PM by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

44 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Beauty has a subjective and objective component. Don't fall for the trap of making this a binary choice.

🤔 That could be true. In something natural like an insect or a cloud, beauty is objective, since it is absolute, but the depth of perception depends on the observer. In a work of art, beauty is in the creation, the beauty perceived, imagined and captured by the artist, which is transmitted to the observer as a communication from deep within. 

The question would be: Why something natural, like hyenas devouring a rotting corpse full of flies, is not beautiful? 

[Jannes]

Okay so I think both perspectives are a bit dense here. 

Leo just jumped right in claiming to have good taste without explaining what he means by that. Taste is often considered as a perfect example of something very or almost completely subjective. So someone claiming their taste is better then the taste of others seems pretty arrogant and forceful. And so I experienced a similar sentiment to what Nilsi expressed though to a lighter extend. 

I also dont buy much into the idea of there being a strong objective component to great taste. But it's immature and unfair to dismiss all of Leos work so far because of one disagreement. 

[Kairos]

30 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

 Why something natural, like hyenas devouring a rotting corpse full of flies, is not beautiful? 

2 hours ago, The Crocodile said:

 

Evolutionary reasons ,our mind is probably evolved to avoid 'rotting things' as it might cause diseases .So such images triggers negative emotions hence, is not perceived as beautiful .

 

[Breakingthewall]

9 minutes ago, Kairos said:

Evolutionary reasons ,our mind is probably evolved to avoid 'rotting things' as it might cause diseases .So such images triggers negative emotions hence, is not perceived as beautiful .

 

Then we should differentiate between absolute and relative beauty. Absolute beauty would be the perception of beauty inherent in reality, and relative beauty would be the perception of what suits us. So, elevated taste would be what tends more towards the absolute and vulgar taste towards the relative. 

The absolute is absolutely beautiful by default, but some manifestations highlight that beauty more than others, even if our perception is not very open.

[Someone here]

@Leo Gura isn't Beauty with Capital (B) an Absolute?  Everything is Pure Beauty. For god ..a smell of a rose or Ruban perfume is equivalent to a smell of a sea of piss with pieces of dog shits swimming in it .

 

[Jannes]

1 minute ago, Someone here said:

@Leo Gura isn't Beauty with Capital (B) an Absolute?  Everything is Pure Beauty. For god ..a smell of a rose or Ruban perfume is equivalent to a smell of a sea of piss with pieces of dog shits swimming in it .

 

Yeah but the talk is about relative beauty. 

 

[Leo Gura]

Beauty and taste are not the same thing.

[Kairos]

3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Absolute beauty would be the perception of beauty inherent in reality, and relative beauty would be the perception of what suits us

Beauty by definition requires distinction from Non beauty meaning it can only be accessed through subjective/ relative lens.

From ABSOLUTE perspective there would be no distinction and Beauty = Non beauty .

 

[Kairos]

Damn dude I getting good at talking in this way huh 😂

[Kairos]

@Leo Gura How would you define taste ?

And how can you distinguish good taste from a bad one isn't that baised ?

[Breakingthewall]

2 minutes ago, Kairos said:

Beauty by definition requires distinction from Non beauty meaning it can only be accessed through subjective/ relative lens.

From ABSOLUTE perspective there would be no distinction and Beauty = Non beauty .

 

Exactly, that means that the reality is absolute beauty, but our human bias closes the lens and only perceives as beautiful what is good for us, so the more selfless you are, the more open you are to absolute beauty, and the more selfish, the more open to relative beauty, like Lamborghinis and models