Distinction between actuality and imagination/concepts

[Breakingthewall]

  On 1/6/2025 at 4:04 PM, The Crocodile said:

The sense of what's true is subjective, the Truth is not.

Choose one 

[The Crocodile]

  On 1/6/2025 at 4:41 PM, Kairos said:

@The Crocodile If something is consistently observable, measurable, and universally applicable it is objectively true (by definition)

For example GRAVITY .

Now if you want to play word-games like leo then idk how to debate you 😂😂😂

 

Beauty and Truth are both lights that can get shined through subjective lenses.

[The Crocodile]

  On 1/6/2025 at 4:34 PM, Breakingthewall said:

Choose one 

That's not how this works.

I could choose all of these over the ugly painting Leo was creaming his jeans over, because these are objectively more beautiful, except for perhaps the one of the angry prisoner.

But two things that are diversely different could both be in the same range of beauty-complex.

Or I could say the white birds are more beautiful than the orange-beaked birds, but that the orange-beaked birds have a background more conducive to social evolution.

[Leo Gura]

Beauty has a subjective and objective component. Don't fall for the trap of making this a binary choice.

[Breakingthewall]

  On 1/6/2025 at 5:00 PM, The Crocodile said:

That's not how this works.

I could choose all of these over the ugly painting Leo was creaming his jeans over, because these are objectively more beautiful, except for perhaps the one of the angry prisoner.

But two things that are diversely different could both be in the same range of beauty-complex.

Or I could say the white birds are more beautiful than the orange-beaked birds, but that the orange-beaked birds have a background more conducive to social evolution.

I wanted to give an example of where beauty is and where each person finds it. The first painting is beautiful because it evokes a sunset or sunrise and the contrasts between blue and red create a special feeling.

The second one, the heavy organic galactic samurai style armor contrasts vividly with the open eye with intelligent and alert expression, not aggressive, which gives it a rare beauty, and the magistral combination of colour 

the dreamlike landscape based on the Kaganawa wave is beautiful for its combination of color and its evocation of other dimensions.

The man in the jail is wonderful, look the shape of that hand, you can feel the heat, the oppression, and the shadow is wonderful.

The others two, as you said, the white is objectively beautiful because the colors and the shapes, the other because the evocation to the high.

Then, we could conclude the the beauty in those cases is a combination of pure combination of colour and shape in one side, and evocation to our unconscious mind in other. The other paint that Leo's liked has no meaning, it's abstract, then it possible beauty is only in the combination of colour and shapes, much more difficult, because any colour could be considered beautiful, and any shape too, like those paints that a monkey did, but in this painting you (or I) can perceive something special, the combination of the white in the exactly places with that pink gives a special melody ,the black arch in the center gives strength, the yellows give the precise light, and the blues the necessary depth. This only orange close the red arch give me a sensation like it's exactly where it has to be, and the light pink in the left upper corner gives space, relax the pressure 

 

Edited January 6 by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

  On 1/6/2025 at 5:13 PM, Leo Gura said:

Beauty has a subjective and objective component. Don't fall for the trap of making this a binary choice.

🤔 That could be true. In something natural like an insect or a cloud, beauty is objective, since it is absolute, but the depth of perception depends on the observer. In a work of art, beauty is in the creation, the beauty perceived, imagined and captured by the artist, which is transmitted to the observer as a communication from deep within. 

The question would be: Why something natural, like hyenas devouring a rotting corpse full of flies, is not beautiful? 

[Jannes]

Okay so I think both perspectives are a bit dense here. 

Leo just jumped right in claiming to have good taste without explaining what he means by that. Taste is often considered as a perfect example of something very or almost completely subjective. So someone claiming their taste is better then the taste of others seems pretty arrogant and forceful. And so I experienced a similar sentiment to what Nilsi expressed though to a lighter extend. 

I also dont buy much into the idea of there being a strong objective component to great taste. But it's immature and unfair to dismiss all of Leos work so far because of one disagreement. 

[Breakingthewall]

  On 1/6/2025 at 6:42 PM, Kairos said:

Evolutionary reasons ,our mind is probably evolved to avoid 'rotting things' as it might cause diseases .So such images triggers negative emotions hence, is not perceived as beautiful .

 

Then we should differentiate between absolute and relative beauty. Absolute beauty would be the perception of beauty inherent in reality, and relative beauty would be the perception of what suits us. So, elevated taste would be what tends more towards the absolute and vulgar taste towards the relative. 

The absolute is absolutely beautiful by default, but some manifestations highlight that beauty more than others, even if our perception is not very open.

[Someone here]

@Leo Gura isn't Beauty with Capital (B) an Absolute?  Everything is Pure Beauty. For god ..a smell of a rose or Ruban perfume is equivalent to a smell of a sea of piss with pieces of dog shits swimming in it .

 

[Jannes]

  On 1/6/2025 at 6:56 PM, Someone here said:

@Leo Gura isn't Beauty with Capital (B) an Absolute?  Everything is Pure Beauty. For god ..a smell of a rose or Ruban perfume is equivalent to a smell of a sea of piss with pieces of dog shits swimming in it .

 

Yeah but the talk is about relative beauty. 

 

[Leo Gura]

Beauty and taste are not the same thing.

[Breakingthewall]

  On 1/6/2025 at 7:01 PM, Kairos said:

Beauty by definition requires distinction from Non beauty meaning it can only be accessed through subjective/ relative lens.

From ABSOLUTE perspective there would be no distinction and Beauty = Non beauty .

 

Exactly, that means that the reality is absolute beauty, but our human bias closes the lens and only perceives as beautiful what is good for us, so the more selfless you are, the more open you are to absolute beauty, and the more selfish, the more open to relative beauty, like Lamborghinis and models

[Leo Gura]

  On 1/6/2025 at 7:05 PM, Kairos said:

@Leo Gura How would you define taste ?

And how can you distinguish good taste from a bad one isn't that baised ?

Contemplate it for yourself.

[Someone here]

  On 1/6/2025 at 7:01 PM, Leo Gura said:

Beauty and taste are not the same thing.

Dude stop being lazy and get to it . You throwing around  ambiguous one liners without explanations 😂. 

[Someone here]

  On 1/6/2025 at 6:58 PM, Jannes said:

Yeah but the talk is about relative beauty. 

 

There is no such thing . This  is what awakening is all about . To see everything as pure beauty. If you actually stopped whatever you are doing right now and looked around you to the sky ..the moon ..Sun..flowers ..bugs ..creatures etc and really looked at them as if you are looking at them for the first time ..you might die from the beauty (if you're awake).

[Princess Arabia]

  On 1/6/2025 at 7:12 PM, Someone here said:

There is no such thing . This  is what awakening is all about . To see everything as pure beauty. If you actually stopped whatever you are doing right now and looked around you to the sky ..the moon ..Sun..flowers ..bugs ..creatures etc and really looked at them as if you are looking at them for the first time ..you might die from the beauty (if you're awake).

Just an ideology. There are no rule books that says one has to see everything as beautiful. That's a condition. Unconditional love doesn't give a shit about seeing everything beautiful. Seeing things as they are without interpretation and adjectives is more ideal. 

[Princess Arabia]

  On 1/6/2025 at 7:17 PM, Kairos said:

In truth reality is neutral and you can label it however u want .IT JUST IS 

❤️

[Leo Gura]

  On 1/6/2025 at 7:07 PM, Someone here said:

Dude stop being lazy and get to it . You throwing around  ambiguous one liners without explanations 😂. 

Am I the lazy one or are you?

[Davino]

  On 1/6/2025 at 7:17 PM, Kairos said:

In truth reality is neutral and you can label it however u want .IT JUST IS 

The Absolute goodness perspective is EMPOWERING so I'll take that .

In the beginning and mid stages of the Awakening process, Reality is perceived as being what is, neutral or equanimous.

That's till one discovers that Reality is the manifestation of Absolute Love. In the same way that when you add all colours you have white or LIGHT, not black and not a rainbow either. 

It is true that it's a cold love or an impersonal love, which can be disilusioning at first but as one opens up and surrenders more, it is seen that at all levels, Reality is a race or asymptote towards ever more Infinite Love. For something to exist it has to be loved enough for it to exist, in actuality being and love are identical. It makes my eyes wet and draws a smile in my face just expresing these great truths and being in tune with existence in such a way. See all that you care in your life is to feel LOVE

Only LOVE is enough. Only LOVE scratches the itch. Only LOVE satisfies.

That's what Reality IS

What you and me: What everything happens to BE

 

You're loved so much you're allowed to be miserable. Reality is in such a way that loves everything as it is, such is the brutal cold nature of Love.

Edited January 6 by Davino

[Someone here]

  On 1/6/2025 at 7:19 PM, Princess Arabia said:

Just an ideology. There are no rule books that says one has to see everything as beautiful. That's a condition. Unconditional love doesn't give a shit about seeing everything beautiful. Seeing things as they are without interpretation and adjectives is more ideal. 

Spiritual nihilism relativism. As expected. 

  On 1/6/2025 at 7:29 PM, Leo Gura said:

Am I the lazy one or are you?

We are contemplating together Leo .

 I ask What makes someone beautiful and someone ugly ? I'm asking about the metaphysics of beauty . wouldn't you say that all of reality is equally beautiful but our biases and judgment distorts our perceptions of reality ?

What is beautiful about a betiful face? Some argue that the more symmetrical your face is.. the more beautiful it is ..But why? Why is symmetry beautiful and asymmetrical faces ugly?  I guess I'm asking a question similar to why is sugar sweet or why sweet is sweet.?.. . At some point we just hit rock bottom and well.. It's just the way it is.