Dismissing criticisms of wokeness =/= being developed

[zazen]

1 hour ago, aurum said:

No. You overplayed your hand.

This is exactly the kind of shoddy critique I'm talking about. 

If no ones critiqued it well, and I've overplayed my hand then maybe give us a hand and critique it when you have time? Isn't it being ''simply out of touch with the survival needs'' as Leo mentioned.. Or what is it then.

Edited Thursday at 08:58 PM by zazen

[aurum]

26 minutes ago, zazen said:

If no ones critiqued it well, and I've overplayed my hand then maybe give us a hand and critique it when you have time? Isn't it being ''simply out of touch with the survival needs'' as Leo mentioned.. Or what is it then.

Leo is one of the few who can do a proper critique.

There's not much I would add beyond what he has already said.

Being "out of touch with survival needs" is certainly the core of it. But just understanding that is not enough. You have to properly assess all the ways in which that does or doesn't play out in real world politics.

Otherwise your critique will still be off and / or unbalanced. 

[Hardkill]

One more thing I want to say about wokeness is that, although I wholeheartedly support social justice in every way possible, and the claims about Democrats and progressives fixating on woke policies and issues like trans rights too much have been highly exaggerated, it appears that the Democratic Party really needs to improve its messaging on fringe trans rights issues. 

I really think that the Democratic Party should do a better job of presenting itself as opposed to extreme policies, such as gender reassignment surgery for minors or allowing male-born transgender athletes to compete in women's sports. To achieve this, they should clarify their stance on these specific issues and provide clear, concise messaging to counteract misconceptions.

Furthermore, the party needs to do a much better job of combating the widespread misinformation and lies circulating on the internet and social media. These false claims, which allege that the Democratic Party supports extreme woke policies, have been allowed to spread unchecked for far too long.

Otherwise, the Democrats will continue to cede the ground on this matter, which will ultimately hurt them in future elections and undermine their ability to connect with voters.

In fact, I think the Democratic Party would be wise to suspend its advocacy for additional trans rights for the foreseeable future.

[Bobby_2021]

The essence of the democratic party is corporatism with some social justice stuff. They just manage to mask it well than the republicans who are unabashed and outright greedy that even makes corporations not associate them for reputations sake. Which is why a lot of the wokeism you see today are not even proper stage green. They are stage orange trying to save their face. 

So even Amazon and their billionaire execs side with democrats since even the extra advantage you get from siding with the republicans would be offset by their damaging reputation. What do you lose by pacifying the masses by brainwashing them into thinking the billionaires are on their side? 

 But overplaying the social justice thing is futile since you are not for social justice. You are a corporate goon. 

[Quader]

54 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

They just manage to mask it well than the republicans who are unabashed - They are stage orange trying to save their face.

Fascinating. This wokism dilemma could be perpetrated by stage orange looking to earn cookies from other people while subsequently being shot down for being disingenuous. If you were stage orange, would it really be conceivable that some pussy snowflake doesn't have a knife hiding under his altruistic flagrancy? They have to find it, because after all, it's a dog eat god world after all. 

[zazen]

12 hours ago, aurum said:

Leo is one of the few who can do a proper critique.

There's not much I would add beyond what he has already said.

Being "out of touch with survival needs" is certainly the core of it. But just understanding that is not enough. You have to properly assess all the ways in which that does or doesn't play out in real world politics.

Otherwise your critique will still be off and / or unbalanced. 

It’s unfair to call my comment shoddy when it largely falls in line with Leo’s core insight which you agree with being accurate - “out of touch with survival needs”.

It’s a forum post after all, not a dissertation where I need to get into every granular detail of real world examples which you haven’t done so yourself.

I’ve broadened the question of what wokeness is including its historical parallels. That philosophical broadness enriches further critique towards case by case examples in the real world - which would be shoddy without understanding the foundational dynamics that give rise to wokeness in the first place.

You dismissed OP post the same way you have mine - missing the forest for the trees. By focusing on one detail you disagreed with, you miss the broader point of how wokeness can overreach in negative ways. But this is the exact reason why movements like wokeness - and by extension, political factions like the Democrats - struggle to connect with the populist vote and risk failing to win the next election.

Leo’s observation about wokeness being detached from survival needs is mirrored here:

“Wokeness thrives not because it is practical or even moral, but because hard times have not yet forced it to reconcile with reality. It is, as writer Rob Henderson says - a ‘luxury belief.’ You can only afford to argue that men can get pregnant or that dismantling police departments is sensible when your belly is full and your streets are safe. But reality doesn’t debate, it demonstrates. In the decline phase of empire, luxury beliefs give way to necessary beliefs.”

That directly touches on wokeness being unmoored from survival realities and existing only in the context of abundance - exactly the point Leo makes. Leo then says wokeness “fails to understand stages of development below itself,” - I highlighted how wokeness deconstructs foundational structures below itself here:

“Wokism seeks to escape form, rather than evolve a better way of living within it. Progress integrates new understanding and environments with eternal principles.”

Basically wokeness often rejects the “form” or structure provided by earlier stages - family units, traditional values, clear boundaries - without appreciating how they came about to meet survival and social needs. Instead of evolving those forms, wokeness attempts to erase them entirely, which alienates those still operating within them.

”Wokeness deconstructs everything while reconstructing nothing - a nihilistic carnival of progressive performance where complexity and nuance goes to die. It mistakes surface-level deconstruction for genuine liberation.”

Edited Friday at 10:17 AM by zazen

[Emerald]

On 1/1/2025 at 5:33 PM, SwiftQuill said:

I'm not interested in giving examples and describing these experiences if you just want to rationalize them and "debunk" my points in this thread. I'm well past done dealing with "debunkers". I actually regret mentioning these experiences because that seemingly took the focus of this thread, which wasn't my intention.

I notice that you didn't tag me in your reply to my post, which is something I find quite interesting.

If you're not going to tell me what happened, then what reason do I have to believe what you said at face value?

Your claim is that you have been denied education, internships, and jobs because you are a white male. And that is the core evidence that you've provided to show why you're critical of wokeness.

And yet, you won't tell me about the education and work opportunities that you lost because you were a white male.

I find that quite telling that you don't have any concrete stories about that.

[SwiftQuill]

On 03/01/2025 at 5:48 PM, Emerald said:

I notice that you didn't tag me in your reply to my post, which is something I find quite interesting.

If you're not going to tell me what happened, then what reason do I have to believe what you said at face value?

Your claim is that you have been denied education, internships, and jobs because you are a white male. And that is the core evidence that you've provided to show why you're critical of wokeness.

And yet, you won't tell me about the education and work opportunities that you lost because you were a white male.

I find that quite telling that you don't have any concrete stories about that.

@Emerald

1 - You noticed I didn't tag you. But you didn't notice I hadn't tagged other people either. That's because I'm new to using this forum and I thought clicking only on the quote option was enough to ping the person. This is only the second time I'm using this forum so don't act so surprised I'm not familiar with the best practices.

2 - For the Nth time, I'm not interested in debating the niche topic of affirmative action. Leo and others have hammered on this topic again and again and ignored the main point I tried to make in the main thread. The main point I made is that wokeness has many problems and we should be able to discuss them without being dismissed as "right wing" or some other dismissive terms that you guys like to resort to.

3 - I don't deal with debunkers. If I tell you that I've been denied for certain internships and certain job opportunities because of affirmative action, as in, the ads for those opportunities explicitly said "FOR FEMALES ONLY" I don't see why you insist I must describe these in further detail. When people like yourself ignore someone's main point and decide to focus on this or that detail and start demanding evidence, that's a sign they just want to "debunk" the other person's position, as opposed to try understand the topic.

4 - No, I didn't use these instances as primary evidence that "woke bad". I gave examples. Try to understand that these are mere examples, not evidence. And I tried to get into a little bit of detail on these examples, like why do people reject the notion that maybe women don't like tech as much as men, and maybe that's why there's a gap. Why do we insist there must be a perfect 50/50 male to female ratio in every industry (except conveniently the industries dominated by women)? And as I keep saying, I'm not interested in debating the topic of affirmative action. I acknowledge that sexism exists, and racism exists, and there are studies out there that prove it. But I find that reductive still.

Since you guys insist on reopening this thread, I appreciate you either respond to the things I'm saying as opposed to demanding evidence. But if you demand want scientific, peer reviewed, double blind experiments saying that I've been rejected for this or that opportunity, or that there are harmful aspects in wokeness worthy of being discussed, then I'm out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

For those 1 or 2 who posted in this thread with the least amount of interest in my main point, here are more:

• Wokeness rejects criticism of woke art - Isn't it interesting how shows like Hazbin Hotel, which have a LOT of LGBTQ+ characters, aren't hated? No one complains Hazbin Hotel is "woke" in a bad way. That's because the show is good. It has interesting characters and interesting writing. But if some guy on IMDB criticizes the bad acting and bad writing in a new star wars movies or series, that's because he's racist.
• Postmodernism deconstructs grand narratives... and writes new ones - Males control banks and corporations and governments and deliberately want to oppress women and minorities and their privilege extends to "men" because let's generalize.
• Wokeness demonises white people, men, western society, rich people - Have western countries done some pretty bad stuff in the past, and even continue doing so today? Yes. Does that mean all non western countries have a perfect history, without slavery and oppression? NO. Are there bad men out there? Yes. Are all men like that, are even "most men" like that? NO. Do you need me to pull 1000's of examples of people who have posted videos on youtube, or written articles, or written books, that say "white people bad"?
• Wokeness pretends progress doesn't exist - I've spoken to my parents. I know how women and minorities were treated a mere generation ago. And I've spoken to my grandparents. Women were second class citizens when my grandma was a teen. Are there still problems in society? Yes, there are still systemic injustices. But let's stop acting as though no progress has ever been made. 

Would someone like me to provide peer reviewed double blind studies on these points as well?

[SwiftQuill]

By the way, when I refer to these points as "criticisms of wokeness," I’m not suggesting that they apply to everyone who is left-wing. Instead, I’m highlighting patterns that I find are often associated with wokeness as subsets of left-wing thought. I know wokeness doesn’t represent the entirety of progressive or leftist ideology, only a large portion of it. As beliefs like Young Earth Creationism aren’t representative of the majority of people on the right. Much like how Young Earth Creationism is more commonly associated with the right than the left, the issues I’m describing tend to be more prominent within woke circles and are more closely tied to left-wing spaces.

[zazen]

On 01/01/2025 at 6:57 PM, SwiftQuill said:

At some point this is beyond debating. I'm speaking from direct experience in my life. There have been times when I was desperately looking for a job and applied to a shit ton of places. Supermarkets, fast food, restaurants, stores, etc. I can't give you a number but there was a significant number of rejections I got because of being male. I can give examples of specific restaurants and stores in my city which say explicitly they prefer hiring females. These aren't beauty saloons or anything like that, I mean normal restaurants and shit like a Lego store in the mall. Yes I have been indeed fucked by society for being male and my ability to survive in the job market has been harmed from it.

Education? I see shit ton of free degrees of software engineering on LinkedIn, like AI, aimed at females. So while I'm middle or lower middle class and I need to study and work at the same time to pay for my degree, if I were female I'd have free tuition.

These examples are just tip of the iceberg and the fact you are unwilling to receive criticism on this topic shows how it's very much taboo to discuss the negative aspects of wokeness.

Bro the frustration you’re describing is real - and it’s exactly what marginalized or minority groups experienced and still do today and to which wokeness was a response that has become its own form of discrimination. When there aren't any black and white policies or laws that are discriminatory, but people still experience or perceive bias in reality - its one of the hardest things to point out because how do you provide evidence for bias to begin with. Saying that - diversity hiring quotas or like in your message you say ''stores in my city which say explicitly they prefer hiring females'' are obvious examples which point to more defined examples of discrimination which Emerald is perhaps asking for.

Beyond codified discrimination - it’s the cultural atmosphere that can shape decisions subtly but powerfully. That’s the insidious part - it leaves those who feel disadvantaged grasping at smoke, with no tangible proof to point to. Wokeness has created a cultural environment where hiring managers may unconsciously prioritize diversity as a moral badge. It doesn't have to be written or spoken out loud  “Don’t hire this person”.

It's the same plausible deniability minorities have faced. The results are real, but the mechanisms are hard to pin down, which is why the frustration on all sides exists. Instead of dismissing your concerns or others, we should appreciate that culture, conversations and narrative shapes behavior, often unintentionally creating new inequities even as it tries to solve old ones.

On the flip side its also true that even if a choice wasn’t influenced by wokeness and a hiring decision was made fairly, the cultural narrative makes it feel like it was. If we think DEI training is happening in all these work places and those same place don't hire us, we can automatically lay blame to those practices. Even if the workplace doesn't have anything of the sort, maybe just the conversations taking place in the culture regarding equity, justice etc is influencing people to hire differently, or not. Wokeness pushes so hard to right past wrongs that it changes how we see decisions.

Edited Sunday at 09:44 AM by zazen

[SwiftQuill]

@zazen Thank you. I'm glad you understand my point.

And if you want something more "productive" on my end, I will say it's difficult. I understand the purpose of DEI and Affirmative action. And I feel that we can't just throw these measures out the window and pretend the free market is fair. I just feel that battling racism with racism and sexism with sexism isn't the best way to go about it. I think under very narrow circumstances we can have DEI. Say in industry X (say Finance) there is a ratio of 50/50 blacks and whites who apply for jobs, with the same level of experience. Yet, whites dominate the market. Under very specific occasions like these, I think DEI is fair.

But I think this is beyond policy. I think it's also more cultural. I feel that what we need the most is to remove bias. And bias is a very difficult variable to "detect" in the system. If a certain industry has more males than females, is it because patriarchy? It could be. Or is it partially because females in general aren't as interested in that field? People just need to account for more variables when thinking of these solutions.

[Bobby_2021]

@SwiftQuill DEI is real and it will take away your chances. Life is unfortunately not a positive sum/abundance game. It is a zero-sum game, more often than not. You need massive luck and strive for creating a blue ocean. The only real solution is to go out there and carve out your own path.

The collective prioritization of DEI, getting more minorities into college etc will degrade the quality of these institutions over the long run. It is already happening. Wokes do not get the value of exclusivity.  Excluding dumbfucks and retards and doing it extremely well is what made these institutions great in the first place. It means that anyone who got in knew their shit and you could count on them to do so. But right now, including lesser qualified people who were *oppressed for millions of years* will result in lower standards which took a lot of work over long time to build in the first place. 

I do not mean to say to completely eliminate the DEI, but that has to come from a grassroots level to supplement actually disadvantaged kids instead of superficial metrics like they do today. I do not disagree with the whole idea of DEI, but they way they go about implementing is a total mess. And anyone who complains about it is a total villain.

19 minutes ago, SwiftQuill said:

But I think this is beyond policy. I think it's also more cultural.

Yeah the whole atmosphere in academia is stifling to anyone who is interested in doing actual research and actual work.  I would not spend a moment in it anymore. Not worth it. It is too feminized and stunted and it looks like it is only getting worse. All these great institutions are built on values which they suddenly no longer care about. 

[SwiftQuill]

10 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

@SwiftQuill

Yeah the whole atmosphere in academia is stifling to anyone who is interested in doing actual research and actual work.  I would not spend a moment in it anymore. Not worth it. It is too feminized and stunted and it looks like it is only getting worse. All these great institutions are built on values which they suddenly no longer care about. 

I mean I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. As someone who has 2 degrees and is currently about to complete the 3rd, I have to say academia has pretty good standards. Then again, I studied in 2 Portuguese universities, not in the USA so I wouldn't know. But I would guess as long as you study anything that isn't "Black Studies", Sociology, "Gender Studies" or "Feminist Studies", in most majors and most courses you will probably get access to decent, accurate education.

[Bobby_2021]

4 hours ago, SwiftQuill said:

But I would guess as long as you study anything that isn't "Black Studies", Sociology, "Gender Studies" or "Feminist Studies", in most majors and most courses you will probably get access to decent, accurate education.

I agree that's it's average or good enough, if that's what you are looking for. But I have extremely high standards for rigor.

[aurum]

On 1/3/2025 at 2:15 AM, zazen said:

It’s unfair to call my comment shoddy when it largely falls in line with Leo’s core insight which you agree with being accurate - “out of touch with survival needs”.

It’s a forum post after all, not a dissertation where I need to get into every granular detail of real world examples which you haven’t done so yourself.

It's not about granular detail. 

It's about bias and keeping things in perspective.

Agreeing with Leo's core insight is not enough. You have to connect the dots in the right way, which you are not.

On 1/3/2025 at 2:15 AM, zazen said:

You dismissed OP post the same way you have mine - missing the forest for the trees. By focusing on one detail you disagreed with, you miss the broader point of how wokeness can overreach in negative ways. But this is the exact reason why movements like wokeness - and by extension, political factions like the Democrats - struggle to connect with the populist vote and risk failing to win the next election.

How absurd.

Whatever overreaches there are of wokeness are not the cause of the Democrats losing. People cannot even handle regular wokeness.

This is what happens as a result of your shoddy analysis. These are the kind of conclusions you come to.

On 1/3/2025 at 2:15 AM, zazen said:

“Wokeness thrives not because it is practical or even moral, but because hard times have not yet forced it to reconcile with reality. It is, as writer Rob Henderson says - a ‘luxury belief.’ You can only afford to argue that men can get pregnant or that dismantling police departments is sensible when your belly is full and your streets are safe. But reality doesn’t debate, it demonstrates. In the decline phase of empire, luxury beliefs give way to necessary beliefs.”

That directly touches on wokeness being unmoored from survival realities and existing only in the context of abundance - exactly the point Leo makes. Leo then says wokeness “fails to understand stages of development below itself,” - I highlighted how wokeness deconstructs foundational structures below itself here:

“Wokism seeks to escape form, rather than evolve a better way of living within it. Progress integrates new understanding and environments with eternal principles.”

Basically wokeness often rejects the “form” or structure provided by earlier stages - family units, traditional values, clear boundaries - without appreciating how they came about to meet survival and social needs. Instead of evolving those forms, wokeness attempts to erase them entirely, which alienates those still operating within them.

”Wokeness deconstructs everything while reconstructing nothing - a nihilistic carnival of progressive performance where complexity and nuance goes to die. It mistakes surface-level deconstruction for genuine liberation.”

You are fighting with a caricature of wokeness.

Wokeness is about far more than deconstruction. And framing it as purely a luxury belief is also deeply incorrect.

[PurpleTree]

I saw a white peaceful hippie person with dreads verbally attacked and tried to guilt trip by people of the woke ideology calling it cultural appropriation and worse and going further.

Is this a caricature of wokeness?

[SwiftQuill]

18 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

I saw a white peaceful hippie person with dreads verbally attacked and tried to guilt trip by people of the woke ideology calling it cultural appropriation and worse and going further.

Is this a caricature of wokeness?

To these people, an uneducated, racist, Young Earth Creationist, white male redneck, with a MAGA hat, who works say as a trucker, to them he is a perfect representation of problems on the right. Definitely not a caricature.

But if you show them videos of liberal women saying they hate men, or black separatists saying they hate white people, or trans activists saying Joe Rogan promotes "trans ge**cide" by discussing trans bathrooms or something stupid like that in his podcast, to them that's "a caricature of wokeness". Or as Leo says, it's "criticism from below". "Fox News propaganda".