Dismissing criticisms of wokeness =/= being developed

[PurpleTree]

1 minute ago, puporing said:

@PurpleTree And I also said:

As well most people simply do not want to talk to me due to the way I am (trans).

In a woke area in California or Portland or whatever for example do you think you’d be ostracised more or a white trumper? Can we just accept all each other’s suffering without minimising any of it? Buddha said life is suffering (or something along those lines) not life of such and such people is suffering. We all die. Our parents get sick wither away and die if we were lucky enough to have them. Diseases. Addictions. Truamas. And so on.

[SwiftQuill]

Maybe, if instead of male I were female, I would have an easier time dating.

Maybe, if I were homosexual instead of straight, I'd also have an easier time dating. Or in making friends.

Maybe there are pros and cons. And being white male isn't all pros. And being female/whatever isn't all cons.

Maybe if I were black, and rich, my life would be easier overall.

Maybe if I were a lesbian black woman... who is a multi millionaire Hollywood celebrity, my life wouldn't be that horrible.

This is the kind of relativism that stage Green rejects.

(And no, I'm not saying that all "demographics" have the same number of pros and cons, I'm not saying they're equal in that way) 

[puporing]

Just now, PurpleTree said:

In a woke area in California or Portland or whatever for example do you think you’d be ostracised more or a white trumper? Can we just accept all each other’s suffering without minimising any of it? Buddha said life is suffering (or something along those lines) not life of such and such people is suffering. We all die. Our parents get sick wither away and die if we were lucky enough to have them. Diseases. Addictions. Truamas. And so on.

I don't know I don't live there. 

I don't see how I am minimizing people's suffering. I mostly keep things to myself anyway, but I do have some responsibility to speak up since I am in one of those minority groups. As you can see I hardly even got into it nor do I really intend to unless someone is actually interested.

[Leo Gura]

@SwiftQuill Affirmative action surely exists, by design, and it does its job.

My question to you is, so what? Why does it bother you? I got over affirmative action back in high school. You just accept it, realizing that it's helping some people who need it and you move on with life. You don't take it personally and then build a politics around it.

Not every policy in society is supposed to help you.

Also, you will note, I didn't dismiss that life was hard for you as a white male. Life can be hard as the son of a billionaire. Life tends to be hard in general.

Edited Thursday at 01:16 AM by Leo Gura

[PurpleTree]

7 minutes ago, puporing said:

I don't know I don't live there. 

I don't see how I am minimizing people's suffering. I mostly keep things to myself anyway, but I do have some responsibility to speak up since I am in one of those minority groups. As you can see I hardly even got into it nor do I really intend to unless someone is actually interested.

What i understood is basically that you said your suffering is "worse" because there’s an extra layer.

(but that might just be projection on my part)

But that’s not necessarily true. It’s also not necessarily untrue. It’s just an idea. There’s also a thing called victim mentality which i’m not saying you have or whatever. But for example we both could get stared at. And you might chalk it to being a minority and racism, sexism etc.. And i might think it’s because i had an ugly (or pretty) face or whatever. 

Edited Thursday at 01:06 AM by PurpleTree

[puporing]

26 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

What i understood is basically that you said your suffering is "worse" because there’s an extra layer.

(but that might just be projection on my part)

But that’s not necessarily true. It’s also not necessarily untrue. It’s just an idea. There’s also a thing called victim mentality which i’m not saying you have or whatever. But for example we both could get stared at. And you might chalk it to being a minority and racism, sexism etc.. And i might think it’s because i had a ugly (or pretty) face or whatever. 

It's not as simple as being stared at. (Some) people will literally act like I don't even exist. This is turning into something unproductive I think.

Edited Thursday at 01:31 AM by puporing

[Hardkill]

 

2 hours ago, SwiftQuill said:

Maybe, if instead of male I were female, I would have an easier time dating.

Maybe, if I were homosexual instead of straight, I'd also have an easier time dating. Or in making friends.

Maybe there are pros and cons. And being white male isn't all pros. And being female/whatever isn't all cons.

Maybe if I were black, and rich, my life would be easier overall.

Maybe if I were a lesbian black woman... who is a multi millionaire Hollywood celebrity, my life wouldn't be that horrible.

This is the kind of relativism that stage Green rejects.

(And no, I'm not saying that all "demographics" have the same number of pros and cons, I'm not saying they're equal in that way) 

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@SwiftQuill Affirmative action surely exists, by design, and it does its job.

My question to you is, so what? Why does it bother you? I got over affirmative action back in high school. You just accept it, realizing that it's helping some people who need it and you move on with life. You don't take it personally and then build a politics around it.

Not every policy in society is supposed to help you.

 

Actually, believe it or not, virtually every liberal/progressive social justice policy throughout all of history that has improved the rights, freedom, fairness, and opportunities of racial/ethnic minorities, immigrants, women, and LGBTQ+ community has also improved the rights, freedom, fairness, and opportunities of poor white men and the white working class. 

Why? 

Because every policy or law that has been racist, xenophobic, sexist, homophobic, classist, etc. has in actuality also caused many white men to suffer from greater poverty, less job/financial opportunities, less education opportunities, less healthcare benefits, less voting rights, greater labor shortage for their own businesses, a smaller and less diverse pool of talent to choose from for hiring workers for their businesses, staff shortages for the schools they run, no gay rights for any gay men, and so much more.

Roland and his panelist start talking about it around 16:13

Edited Thursday at 03:10 AM by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

Back in high school I applied to places like MIT and CalTech and never got accepted. Was it because of affirmative action? It never even crossed my mind to care. I don't need it that badly. But if I had some right-wing axe to grind I could still be blaming it on affirmative action 20 years later.

That's the difference between abundance mindset vs scarcity mindset.

Conservatives lack abundance mindset.

Edited Thursday at 01:40 AM by Leo Gura

[PurpleTree]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Back in high school I applied to places like MIT and CalTech and never got accepted. Was it because of affirmative action? It never even crossed my mind to care. I don't need it that badly. But if I had some right-wing axe to grind I could still be blaming it on affirmative action 20 years later.

That's the difference between abundance mindset vs scarcity mindset.

And if you were a minority you might have thought that was the reason for not getting a position.

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

And if you were a minority you might have thought that was the reason for not getting a position.

Interesting point.

I should have said I was an endangered species. Last of my kind. A unicorn 

Edited Thursday at 01:47 AM by Leo Gura

[Husseinisdoingfine]

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Back in high school I applied to places like MIT and CalTech

God damn it, considering how shit my SAT score was in High School, I could never have been accepted. I literally could have gotten a better score if I spent a measly hour a day studying, but instead I watched internet videos. Why oh why oh why was I like this.

I’m again triggered and getting flash backs to my failed academic career.

Edited Thursday at 01:55 AM by Husseinisdoingfine

[Leo Gura]

FYI:

California, that woke hell-hole, banned affirmative action in public schools in 1996.

And today it is banned nationwide by Supreme Court.

Edited Thursday at 01:54 AM by Leo Gura

[Lyubov]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Wokeness doesn't mean that white men are priveleged in all cases. You can find exceptions. But overall white men got life easier than every other demographic.

I don’t agree with this statement. I think it’s been put out there far too long by the left. It’s difficult to measure something like this. What makes life easier or harder? If we are talking about economic mobility at a certain point in time, sure. Other than that it’s hard to keep tally on everything each person faces considering society is made up of individuals. Young white men have reported some of the highest levels of suicide and depression. I would not call that an easier life. And then the left thinks we want to vote for them after drilling and propagating this notion for decades. Times change. This is not exactly true anymore. Everyone faces challenges in different areas of life. 

[puporing]

@PurpleTree I've talked to people (in a position of hiring) at a random bar that they would not hire certain ethnic groups/discriminate (and also certain minorities that would hire only from their own group as well) ... limited data points but it's not nothing.

I don't say what I say lightly based on a few or random occurrences. I am speaking from repeated occurrences (regarding being trans). I have accepted this reality as it is so the suffering has lessened. I know why it happens. No biological male likes to feel emasculated around someone like me. 

Edited Thursday at 02:06 AM by puporing

[Leo Gura]

13 minutes ago, Lyubov said:

I don’t agree with this statement. I think it’s been put out there far too long by the left. It’s difficult to measure something like this. What makes life easier or harder? If we are talking about economic mobility at a certain point in time, sure. Other than that it’s hard to keep tally on everything each person faces considering society is made up of individuals. Young white men have reported some of the highest levels of suicide and depression. I would not call that an easier life. And then the left thinks we want to vote for them after drilling and propagating this notion for decades. Times change. This is not exactly true anymore. Everyone faces challenges in different areas of life. 

I would say white men def have a hiring advantage for jobs, especially powerful public-facing jobs.

Women are still discriminated against for such jobs I think. And brown/black people for sure.

In 1992 black people were not allowed to join the golf course on which I lived in California. Not offically, but unofficially. Wink, wink.

Affirmative action is designed to fix stuff like that.

Edited Thursday at 02:11 AM by Leo Gura

[Raze]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I would say white men def have a hiring advantage for jobs, especially powerful public-facing jobs.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0749597823000560
 

Quote

A preregistered meta-analysis, including 244 effect sizes from 85 field audits and 361,645 individual job applications, tested for gender bias in hiring practices in female-stereotypical and gender-balanced as well as male-stereotypical jobs from 1976 to 2020. A “red team” of independent experts was recruited to increase the rigor and robustness of our meta-analytic approach. A forecasting survey further examined whether laypeople (n = 499 nationally representative adults) and scientists (n = 312) could predict the results. Forecasters correctly anticipated reductions in discrimination against female candidates over time. However, both scientists and laypeople overestimated the continuation of bias against female candidates. Instead, selection bias in favor of male over female candidates was eliminated and, if anything, slightly reversed in sign starting in 2009 for mixed-gender and male-stereotypical jobs in our sample. Forecasters further failed to anticipate that discrimination against male candidates for stereotypically female jobs would remain stable across the decades.

 

[Quader]

@SwiftQuill

1 hour ago, SwiftQuill said:

This is the kind of relativism that stage Green rejects.

I agree, you're articulating well serious flaws in Stage Green. I think a lot of the blowback comes from people wanting to avoid impeding people's progress to get TO green as opposed to understanding it's limitation. It's a bit of a trick to gloss over greens toxicity but the reason is genuinely meant to facilitate a growing sense of compassion for the world, damn the consequences. Because the consequences are less severe than rejecting progress. 

[Buck Edwards]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Woke politics does not personally benefit me, since I'm a rich white male.

If it doesn't personally benefit you, you won't think about it. But if it personally harms you, you will. 

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

If it doesn't personally benefit you, you won't think about it. But if it personally harms you, you will. 

It does harm me in the sense of higher taxes and such.

All those Covid checks that Biden and Trump sent out -- I got zero.

If I was voting purely to max my personal gain I would vote Trump.

Edited Thursday at 03:41 AM by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

The more rights and opportunities minorities and women have the better the quality of life the majority of white people in a developed country have.

Only white men who are straight, rich, and grew up in a Christian background like Trump, the Bushes, Reagan, and Musk have something to lose from any advancements in civil rights, social justice, and equality for any marginalized groups. 

Edited Thursday at 03:43 AM by Hardkill