Dismissing criticisms of wokeness =/= being developed

[SwiftQuill]

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You are correct that some far left progressives are overly occupied with identity politics and have turned it into a kind of dogma/paradigm lock which overlooks individual details and even issues of economics and class. Some extreme progressives can say stupid things like, "Men are the problem". There are definitely excesses on the left. There a problems with cancel culture and automatically believing any accusation a woman makes against a man, and so on.

THANK YOU that is one of my points yes.

[SwiftQuill]

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Describe these experiences.

I'm not interested in giving examples and describing these experiences if you just want to rationalize them and "debunk" my points in this thread. I'm well past done dealing with "debunkers". I actually regret mentioning these experiences because that seemingly took the focus of this thread, which wasn't my intention.

[SwiftQuill]

• "Whiny dude whines"
• "Andrew Tate"
• "Red pill, alt right"
• "White male thinks white males are oppressed in tech"
• "You're giving criticism from below"
• "I've never experienced the things you're describing therefore you're wrong"
• "Tell me about your experiences, I'll debunk every single one of them"

This is what it comes down to this thread, unfortunately. I genuinely wanted it to have been more productive than this. All of this, because in my initial post I said "We should be able to discuss the negative aspects of wokeness more". We essentially didn't get to step 1 without everyone hopping in to try dismiss my points.

[Leo Gura]

@SwiftQuill So what are the points you want us to understand that you feel we are missing?

Did you watch my 2-part series called Where Does The Left Go Too Far?

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 10:52 PM by Leo Gura

[SwiftQuill]

@Leo Gura yes I've seen those 2 videos. This thread was supposed to be a sort of part 3 in a way, but more focused on communication. I feel you did an ok job handling the topic of those videos but you kind of skimmed over some points I thought were important. Like in part 2 you mentioned "Yeah DEI/affirmative action is good but it can go a bit too far sometimes" you didn't deconstruct it with as much depth I hoped. Great set of videos though.

My intention with this thread was specifically to focus on communication. As you noticed from the reaction to your own videos, many people commented saying they find you to be right wing for daring to criticise some of those points (preposterous). There is an inherent kneejerk reaction in left wing communities such that any criticism toward the left is taken in a very hostile manner. And phrased as us vs the right/the alt right/the incels/the whatever.

Here's a more succint list of my main points:

• Opposition to wokeness is õften unfairly labeled as right-wing, ignoring center and center-left critiques.

• There's a distinction between criticizing the goals of equity policies and critiquing their implementation; while the goals may be admirable, some measures can be overly simplistic and unfair.

• Wokeness oversimplifies issues, exaggerates privilege, and dismisses individual struggles.

• Communities like Actualized.org dismiss valid criticisms as ideological immaturity or bigotry.

• Society's intolerance for dissent stifles dialogue and discourages balanced discussions on justice and fairness.

Edited Wednesday at 11:05 PM by SwiftQuill
To answer the question

[Leo Gura]

36 minutes ago, SwiftQuill said:

As you noticed from the reaction to your own videos, many people commented saying they find you to be right wing for daring to criticise some of those points (preposterous).

Of course that happens because progressives live in an ideological echochamber. The Green worldview is an echochamber.

37 minutes ago, SwiftQuill said:

Opposition to wokeness is õften unfairly labeled as right-wing, ignoring center and center-left critiques.

Yes. For sure this happens.

Sam Harris is a good example of this.

Some far progressives might call me just another centerist neoliberal.

[SwiftQuill]

And by the way, just to clarify some points from earlier.

• I never said that "all men are oppressed in the tech market". 
• I never said it's impossible for men to get a job in tech, or that I don't have one in tech. In fact I do. What I did say was that I've been rejected multiple times for jobs (both in tech and outside this one industry) due to DEI/Affirmative action quotas.

I'd like to clarify this so that I'm not misconstrued. I appreciate when I say "I experienced [X] in various occasions" that people don't reply with "YOU THINK ALL MEN ARE OPPRESSED IN [X]??? HOW ABSURD!". What I said isn't some ideology or propaganda or a belief system. It's a communication of a fact, of a lived experience.

[Hardkill]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course that happens because progressives live in an ideological echochamber. The Green worldview is an echochamber.

Yes. For sure this happens.

Sam Harris is a good example of this.

Some far progressives might call me just another centerist neoliberal.

As I've become increasingly aware of the developments in US politics over the past four years, I actually don't think that any progressives in Congress, except for a small handful of representatives in the US House, have actually engaged in identitarian woke politics to any significant extent.

I don't even think that AOC has focused excessively on emphasizing the importance of certain issues that have been irrelevant to most people in the country such as using preferred gender pronouns or promoting the term Latinx. I also don't think that she has ever been for open borders or excessively demonized the police. Instead, the policy priorities and public statements of progressives like her have largely centered on issues like economic inequality, healthcare, and climate change.

Edited Wednesday at 11:53 PM by Hardkill

[SwiftQuill]

@Hardkill

I'm not an american nor into US politics. What or who is AOC?

[hoodrow trillson]

4 minutes ago, SwiftQuill said:

@Hardkill

I'm not an american nor into US politics. What or who is AOC?

Oh.

[Hardkill]

5 minutes ago, SwiftQuill said:

@Hardkill

I'm not an american nor into US politics. What or who is AOC?

https://www.instagram.com/aoc/?hl=en

[SwiftQuill]

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Well OP, what do you suggest should happen in society for your current grievances to be fixed satisfactorily?

I only now noticed this was a sarcastic remark and not a legitimate attempt to engage in the topic.

I think that's enough. One of the mods can close this thread or something. I'm done debating here.

Happy new year, folks. Do make sure to protect your ideology with tooth and nail.

[puporing]

I acknowledge your struggles and that life is/can be hard for a lot of people. 

The thing is that people don't really know what it's like if you fall into one of or more than one of those minority groups. And then if I described it to you what it's like day to day, because you don't have that direct experience you might say that I am exaggerating things or making things up and just lump me as some "left wing ideology". The reality is I generally cannot talk about myself at all in public or to just about anyone, it is not safe for me. I have no recourse if someone continuously causes me harm (that leaves little to no tracks). But their actions do affect my "mental well being" in this world and ability to function/survive. If things get bad enough, I could literally not be able to survive in this world due to being "what I am". And I am not even talking about some fancy job, I am just talking about any job I can reasonably do.

Edited Thursday at 12:36 AM by puporing

[PurpleTree]

3 minutes ago, puporing said:

 

The thing is that people don't really know what it's like if you fall into one of or more than one of those minority groups. 

A minority group also doesn’t really know what it’s like to be a non minority group or whatever. A woman doesn’t know what it’s like to be a man and vice versa. An asian doesn’t know what it means to be black and vice versa. A Chinese doesn’t know what it means to be an Indian.  A rich vs poor. Two parents vs only one parent. A smart person doesn’t know what it means to be dumb. An autist doesn’t know what it means to be non autistic etc etc you get the point.

[SwiftQuill]

3 minutes ago, puporing said:

I acknowledge your struggles and that life is/can be hard for a lot of people. 

The thing is that people don't really know what it's like if you fall into one of or more than one of those minority groups. And then if I described it to you what it's like day to day, because you don't have that direct experience you might say that I am exaggerating things or making things up and just lump me as some "left wing ideology". The reality is I cannot talk about myself at all in public or to just about anyone, it is not safe for me. I have no recourse if someone continuously causes me harm (that leaves little to no tracks). But their actions do affect my "mental well being" in this world and ability to function. If things get bad enough, I could literally not able to survive in this world due to being "who I am". 

I explicitly said I don't know what it's like to be a woman and I have no clue how many problems they face in life. Not once did I say "Oh women don't have it that bad" or that about any other opressed class.

All I did say is that the oppressed vs privileged dichotomy is too simplistic in the stage green worldview. 

I never dismiss personal experiences from:

• Women
• The disabled
• Ethnic minorities
• Immigrants
• LGBTQ

And yet, because I'm male and white leftists feel very comfortable commenting on my life and how easy I have it. If people on this forum find what I'm saying that outrageous it shows they're just being biased. My lived experiences, conveniently, because of this ideology, are irrelevant, or "statistically rare", or "not as bad as this other group". Do you see my issue?

[puporing]

1 minute ago, PurpleTree said:

A minority group also doesn’t really know what it’s like to be a non minority group or whatever. A woman doesn’t know what it’s like to be a man and vice versa. An asian doesn’t know what it means to be black and vice versa. A Chinese doesn’t know what it means to be an Indian.  A rich vs poor. Two parents vs only one parent. A smart person doesn’t know what it means to be dumb. An autist doesn’t know what it means to be non autistic etc etc you get the point.

You can know a lot by observing and talking to them. Like I said I am not denying people's struggles, but they do not (generally) have this extra layer of struggle that is called discrimination and social ostracization.

[Raze]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You stated your points quite clearly. I don't have time to summarize them all.

Bottomline is that you feel affirmtive action has been unfair to you and overcorrective. You feel that the white male perspective has become marginalized and beat up by lefties when in reality life is still difficult for white males.

But currently men are a minority of high school and college grads, but women still receive more in scholarship funds, and a recent meta analysis found overall men face more sex based discrimination in hiring then women currently.

This is a contributing factor in men being the majority of deaths of despair.

Edited Thursday at 12:42 AM by Raze

[puporing]

7 minutes ago, SwiftQuill said:

And yet, because I'm male and white leftists feel very comfortable commenting on my life and how easy I have it. If people on this forum find what I'm saying that outrageous it shows they're just being biased. My lived experiences, conveniently, because of this ideology, are irrelevant, or "statistically rare", or "not as bad as this other group". Do you see my issue?

Yes I understand that, I am just saying that if you had the exact same life situation right now, and change to something like say a trans + ethnic minority on top of that, things would be even worse (statistically speaking). I am saying life would be even harder for you than it already is. 

Though we are not counting exceptions here, I am just speaking in general terms.

Edited Thursday at 12:44 AM by puporing

[PurpleTree]

15 minutes ago, puporing said:

The thing is that people don't really know what it's like if you fall into one of or more than one of those minority groups. 

 

6 minutes ago, puporing said:

You can know a lot by observing and talking to them. 

 

[puporing]

@PurpleTree And I also said:

19 minutes ago, puporing said:

The reality is I generally cannot talk about myself at all in public or to just about anyone, it is not safe for me.

As well most people simply do not want to talk to me due to the way I am (trans).

Edited Thursday at 12:47 AM by puporing