Dismissing criticisms of wokeness =/= being developed

[SwiftQuill]

I find it deeply frustrating that opposition to wokeness is often automatically associated with right-wing politics. As someone who identifies as center-left and supports equality for all, including women, ethnic minorities, and marginalized groups, I reject the toxic aspects of wokeness because I have experienced injustices stemming from it. For instance, I’ve been denied education, internships, and jobs simply because I am male. These experiences make me question a system that claims to fight inequality yet perpetuates discrimination under the guise of equity.

It angers me that expressing valid concerns about wokeness often leads to being labeled as against equality or afraid of losing privilege. This oversimplified narrative ignores the complexities of real-life situations. While privilege exists in many contexts, wokeness often exaggerates its scope and application, disregarding individual struggles and nuances.

I’m also concerned that communities like Actualized.org, including Leo himself, are uncritical of wokeness and unwilling to address its flaws. In this community, criticism of wokeness or the left is often dismissed as right-wing rhetoric, incel ideology, bigotry, or being stuck in a "stage orange" mindset, ignoring valid concerns about its negative impact. Leo and many forum users claim, "If you criticize stage green, it’s because you’re too comfortable in stage orange or not evolved enough," while simultaneously demonizing stage orange. By their logic, this community’s inability to handle criticism fairly would place it below stage orange.

It feels like a large part of society doesn’t fully embrace radical leftist ideas yet remains intolerant of dissent. This stifles dialogue and forces people like me, who value fairness and genuine equality, to remain silent or risk being misunderstood. Ultimately, my frustration lies in the inability to critique the excesses of wokeness without being unfairly categorized. I want a world where discussions about justice and fairness are balanced, inclusive, and open to diverse perspectives—not dominated by a single, intolerant ideology.

[aurum]

3 hours ago, SwiftQuill said:

For instance, I’ve been denied education, internships, and jobs simply because I am male.

You lost me here.

There is no significant injustice being dealt to men in obtaining these things by “wokeness ”.

[SwiftQuill]

Yes I sure lost you. Do you want me statistics on this topic? Do you want a double blind peer reviewed study saying that I have been rejected multiple times for job because I'm male? Because according to society living experience doesn't matter, only statistics and books written by feminists and sociologists apparently.

At some point this is beyond debating. I'm speaking from direct experience in my life. There have been times when I was desperately looking for a job and applied to a shit ton of places. Supermarkets, fast food, restaurants, stores, etc. I can't give you a number but there was a significant number of rejections I got because of being male. I can give examples of specific restaurants and stores in my city which say explicitly they prefer hiring females. These aren't beauty saloons or anything like that, I mean normal restaurants and shit like a Lego store in the mall. Yes I have been indeed fucked by society for being male and my ability to survive in the job market has been harmed from it.

Education? I see shit ton of free degrees of software engineering on LinkedIn, like AI, aimed at females. So while I'm middle or lower middle class and I need to study and work at the same time to pay for my degree, if I were female I'd have free tuition.

These examples are just tip of the iceberg and the fact you are unwilling to receive criticism on this topic shows how it's very much taboo to discuss the negative aspects of wokeness.

@aurum go fuck yourself honestly

[aurum]

43 minutes ago, SwiftQuill said:

Yes I sure lost you. Do you want me statistics on this topic? Do you want a double blind peer reviewed study saying that I have been rejected multiple times for job because I'm male? Because according to society living experience doesn't matter, only statistics and books written by feminists and sociologists apparently.

At some point this is beyond debating. I'm speaking from direct experience in my life. There have been times when I was desperately looking for a job and applied to a shit ton of places. Supermarkets, fast food, restaurants, stores, etc. I can't give you a number but there was a significant number of rejections I got because of being male. I can give examples of specific restaurants and stores in my city which say explicitly they prefer hiring females. These aren't beauty saloons or anything like that, I mean normal restaurants and shit like a Lego store in the mall. Yes I have been indeed fucked by society for being male and my ability to survive in the job market has been harmed from it.

Education? I see shit ton of free degrees of software engineering on LinkedIn, like AI, aimed at females. So while I'm middle or lower middle class and I need to study and work at the same time to pay for my degree, if I were female I'd have free tuition.

These examples are just tip of the iceberg and the fact you are unwilling to receive criticism on this topic shows how it's very much taboo to discuss the negative aspects of wokeness.

@aurum go fuck yourself honestly

Sounds like you're having a tough time. I'm sorry about that.

[Leo Gura]

It is crucial to distinguish criticism of wokeness from below vs from above.

Of course wokeness can be criticized from above, but most criticisms of wokeness are from below, as an emotional backlash, ideology, or culture war nonsense.

I have criticized wokeness from above. I have several videos on that topic: Where The Left Goes Wrong. And blogposts.

Just because you've been denied some jobs or whatever for being male doesn't mean much because you also need to take into account how often women are denied jobs for being women. Or blacks for being black. Or gays for being gay.

Wokeness doesn't mean that white men are priveleged in all cases. You can find exceptions. But overall white men got life easier than every other demographic.

You have to be careful not to conflate your personal situation with public policy matters. You lost a job due to being a male? Okay. But what does this have to do with what the best public policy is?

You can criticize wokeness but you gotta do intelligently.

When you say the Lego Store didn't hire you because you're male, how do you know that is the reason vs them just picking someone who is more qualified? If you have an anti-wokeness worldview then your mind will just spin a story to match it. And when some place does hire you, will you care whether they hired just because you're male? Will you complain about that?

When you make your politics so tied up with personal benefit and employment, that's a sign that your politics isn't very good. Because good politics isn't about your personal needs, it's about what is best for society at large.

Woke politics does not personally benefit me, since I'm a rich white male. But what makes me developed is that I don't even care about that. It doesn't even cross my mind how I can benefit from politics. If you want to do criticism of wokeness from above then you should be coming from this place, not personal grievance from losing a job.

Edited Wednesday at 08:19 PM by Leo Gura

[SwiftQuill]

My individual experience is enough to debunk the notion that all males are privileged overall in life.

And again, for the nth time, I'm not dismissing that women and other demographics have issues. I'm not the one gaslighting others.

This attitude of let's brush men with a broad brush as though they have it easy in life in 90% of cases is what I am against.

We live in a society where a white woman who is a project manager at a tech company, makes good money, has a husband and children, is seen as part of the "oppressed" class.

Whereas you can have a guy with a Master's degree in civil engineering, and because of the bad job market he's working at a supermarket or fast food to survive. Let's say he has autism or some other hidden issue he's facing like and addiction or family situation.

Doesn't matter. He's a cis white male and that alone dismisses all of his perspective because he's "protected by the patriarchy". 

Yes I do understand there is racism in the world. Yes I do understand women suffer from a lot of things I can't even begin to imagine. Immigrants have it rough. I'm not here downplaying the notion that classes exist and many people are oppressed. 

But there is such a thing as swinging the pendulum in the other direction. And there's this BS attitude of "let's pretend the world has 0 sympathy for those oppressed people". We live in a world where DEI and Affirmative action policies exist, many of which go way too far in fighting racism with racism and sexism with sexism.

But who am I to say? I'm probably just a privileged bigot who just has it *way too easy in life* so I am not allowed to express criticism toward any single left wing ideology. That's how privileged I am, to the extent that everything and anything I say is dismissed as ignorance and bigotry.

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, SwiftQuill said:

My individual experience is enough to debunk the notion that all males are privileged overall in life.

But this is a cartoon caricature of wokeness.

"All males are privileged" is not a serious political position. It's a FoxNews meme.

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This attitude of let's brush men with a broad brush as though they have it easy in life in 90% of cases is what I am against

I don't really see this happening. Leftists are concerned about income inequality and class. It is obvious and acknowledged that many white males are poor, struggling, and need help.

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We live in a society where a white woman who is a project manager at a tech company, makes good money, has a husband and children, is seen as part of the "oppressed" class.

Again, not really. She is part of an oppressed class in narrow ways like with regards to sexual harassment. Or lower income.

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Whereas you can have a guy with a Master's degree in civil engineering, and because of the bad job market he's working at a supermarket or fast food to survive.

A bad job market affects men and women pretty equally. You make it sound like women got is easy in a bad job market.

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Doesn't matter. He's a cis white male and that alone dismisses all of his perspective because he's "protected by the patriarchy".

Dude, cis white male perspective dominates every platform and medium, and it has for 200 years. Come on. When you make arguments like this is weakens your case.

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.But there is such a thing as swinging the pendulum in the other direction. 

How would you know if the pendulum was swung too far? By what objective measure vs personal outrage?

Edited Wednesday at 08:48 PM by Leo Gura

[SwiftQuill]

I say the pendulum swings too far when my opinion is rejected merely for being male and white.

I say the pendulum swings too far when I join a community anywhere online, reddit, this community, any other media, and I seek help about men's issues like mental health, dating and masculinity, and people like you call that a "manosphere".

I say the pendulum swings far when they create affirmative action for my career industry and create jobs just for women for instance, to fix the "dominance of men" in the industry. Has anyone ever pondered that some industries like tech are just boring for women? Therefore few women take those degrees, few women apply to jobs in the industry, and that's why there's a gap? Why on earth do people insist there has to be a perfect 50/50 ratio in every industry? Are you going to deny asymmetries exist?

The reason there are more men than industry x or y isn't necessary "because of the patriarchy". Conveniently, no one worries if females dominate the hr or psych industries. 

And lastly, it's not fox news propaganda to say people often dismiss the things I say for being male and white. That has happened to me many times in my previous job (and in contexts that had nothing to do with politics). It has happened to me many times online and in person. And it has made me feel ostracized. I developed anger issues because of this. People gaslight me by saying that I have it easy in life when I don't. I study my ass off, I work my ass off, I do self help, I have a psychologist, I do the best to improve myself. Sure I've never been sexually harassed or imprisoned unfairly. But life isn't "easy". It's a grind. It's not easy being in my shoes. Especially not when people want to make life harder for me by employing affirmative action and all that BS, and I'm not even allowed to express dissent. It's not a fox news fear monger thing. This is reality. People are indeed dismissive of men's issues. I'm saying from experience, not out of some incel shit or men's rights thing. 

[SwiftQuill]

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Dude, cis white male perspective dominates every platform and medium, and it has for 200 years. Come on. When you make arguments like this is weakens your case.

So according to you, because for a thousand years men dominated everything and everyone, today, the average Joe working 60 hour weeks at Mcdonald's, he is part of the privileged class.

It shocks me that you fail to see so many problems in the leftist ideology.

There are serious flaws in this worldview. And I could go on listing many of them, but if you're going to enter "let's debunk everything you say" mode, I don't see much of a point.

I'm a huge fan of Actualized.org, the channel has taught me a lot of valuable things in life. But I do see this loyalty to the left bias, unfortunately.

And finally, this is where I should have started this thread:

My definition of "wokeness" isn't "the monolithic of left wing ideas".

By my definition of "wokeness" I mean the excesses, the misapplications, the reductive perspective of left wing ideas and narratives, which yes, many leftists hold.

You shouldn't assume most leftists and stage green individuals are as nuanced as you, Leo. 

Edited Wednesday at 09:48 PM by SwiftQuill
Wanted to add extra context

[Leo Gura]

@SwiftQuill  But bro, I am a white male. Why is it that I do not feel oppressed by affrimative action and feminism? I participated on manosphere forums. Why did I not have a problems there? I applied for jobs and I didn't feel that women had it better than me. I share my opinions all the time and no one had canceled me or rejected me. And I say some radical shit.

You are seriously complaining that tech jobs are biased against white males??? This isn't serious.

I think the real issue is that you are struggling in life from personal issues and challenges and your mind is looking for something to blame, and wokeness fits that bill.

Look, just because white males have certain privilege in general does not at all mean that being a white male is easy. Some white males got it really hard. I am sorry that you were dealt some bad cards. It definitely happens. It can happen to anyone. But if you are not getting a tech job I promise you it's not because of wokeness.

I know the manosphere inside out. It's got a lot of toxic stuff in it. With that said, you can also find good advice in some parts of it. I did. But if you are honest you have to admit that the manosphere has a lot of toxic, depraved ideas that poison the minds of young men. So you can see why wokeness would denounce the manosphere -- because it is deeply sexist. That doesn't mean you can't get some valuable advice from it to improve your life.

But you understand that Andrew Tate and men of his ilk are perverts.

Edited Wednesday at 09:48 PM by Leo Gura

[SwiftQuill]

@Leo Gura

Can you paraphrase the main points I've said in this thread? In an accurate manner?

And don't get into the content details of the tech industry or this or that example. I mean the overall point I'm making.

[SwiftQuill]

@Nilsi what? So from this thread you immediately assume I'm "alt right", "red pill" and all that stuff about "preaching masculinity"?

You know this is actually a great example of my points being dismissed. Care to add "incel", "blackpill", "cringe", and other thought terminating clichés to your list?

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, SwiftQuill said:

@Leo Gura

Can you paraphrase the main points I've said in this thread? In an accurate manner?

And don't get into the content details of the tech industry or this or that example. I mean the overall point I'm making.

You stated your points quite clearly. I don't have time to summarize them all.

Bottomline is that you feel affirmtive action has been unfair to you and overcorrective. You feel that the white male perspective has become marginalized and beat up by lefties when in reality life is still difficult for white males.

[hoodrow trillson]

Well OP, what do you suggest should happen in society for your current grievances to be fixed satisfactorily?

[SwiftQuill]

My biggest point in this thread wasn't to get into specifics like that. And you are portraying my points as "a whiny dude whines".

My biggest point initially was I feel we need to add more nuance to discussing left wing ideas without resorting to thought terminating clichés like redpill or incel to dismiss other opinions.

I'm not saying that "men are marginalized". I am saying I've had many encounters with leftists that lacked nuance and had this overcorrection attitude. 

My biggest argument, truly, is that we should accept more individual life experiences. As opposed to seeing everything through a marxist good vs evil, privileged vs oppressor perspective, which is reductive. That is my main point.

[Leo Gura]

@SwiftQuill You are correct that some far left progressives are overly occupied with identity politics and have turned it into a kind of dogma/paradigm lock which overlooks individual details and even issues of economics and class. Some extreme progressives can say stupid things like, "Men are the problem". There are definitely excesses on the left. There are problems with cancel culture and automatically believing any accusation a woman makes against a man, and so on. There are problems with demonizing the police. There are problems with open borders. There are even problems with excessive weed legalization and lax drug enforcement.

Edited Wednesday at 10:33 PM by Leo Gura

[Terell Kirby]

Fast forward to 2025-the racial wealth gap in the US and across the globe is still a real thing. Affirmative action always worked to address the systemic inequalities among race and gender, though not perfect (and at time excessive).

Where leftist make a mistake is demonizing whole groups of people based on systemic issues. These narratives lead disenfranchised white men to toxic echo chambers of red pill and black pill-they know not what they do.

But in reality, white men sit at the top of many power structures and hierarchies across multiple industries (maybe with exception of music/entertainment/Hollywood). Does this mean all white men are bad? Of course not, but there is much work to do in creating an equal playing field in society.

Edited Wednesday at 10:24 PM by Terell Kirby

[Emerald]

8 hours ago, SwiftQuill said:

For instance, I’ve been denied education, internships, and jobs simply because I am male.

Describe these experiences.

[zazen]

@SwiftQuill I get you. The issue is like you and others have said - overcorrection and conflating critiquing that overcorrection with terminating cliches (I like that phrasing) - essentially nuking any discourse aimed at redressing valid grievances.

Also, in trying to equalise disparities we create others. This doesn’t have to be written black and white in government policy for us to point out, it can be a cultural climate and corporate posturing that influence behaviour. Essentially silent hiring x candidate over another to make the company look good, or those in it.

Its actually the opposite of dignifying - to be hired based on superficial traits as what’s between your legs or the pigment of your skin, the feeling of being somewhere like some trophy - talk about being unseen.

[SwiftQuill]

@hoodrow trillson

My opinion is that people should be more open minded and tolerant to different opinions.

But really it's a matter of healthy communication. This thread is a good example of terrible communication. Everyone here thinks I'm a whiny dude who feels "men are marginalized" when that's not what I said.

Here are some of my suggestions for everyone (not just the right or just the left or any particular group):

1 - Avoiding thought terminating clichés.

Every time you feel tempted to use one of the following words: incel, racist, fascist, right wing, alt right, bigot, transphobe, woke mind virus, communist/marxist (in the pejorative), radical (as prefix), etc. Just think for like 5 seconds, and see if you have sufficient data to determine they are those things. But as a general rule of thumb, avoid them.

2 - Try to understand, not just debunk.

"I'm going to debunk this red pill idiot". Maybe don't. Maybe try to actually understand what he's saying. This doesn't mean to agree with it. Genuinely try to understand. Don't get into "debunk mode" straight away.

3 - Avoid "us vs them" attitudes.

This goes back to the thought terminating clichés, but essentially I feel people should try to see individuals mostly as individuals, just another human who is confused or suffering in life, as opposed to "the enemy" (like the white men, or the patriarchs, or the incels, or the whoever is your enemy).

4 - Don't be loyal.

Like if I make a post criticising one particular feminist individual, or one left wing content creator, like Vaush or Destiny or whatever, don't immediately jump to defend them. Try to be impartial and listen to the criticism, and afterward reply. Don't just think OH THIS GUY HATES FEMINISTS THEREFORE HE'S A SEXIST (because I criticize one particular feminist celebrity, for instance) just don't.

This goes beyond the "left vs right" battle. It's a problem of communication and tribalism overall. It's something I feel we should address more often. Both online and in person, I feel communication is very polluted whenever it has anything to do with ideologies.