Toxic dating works better and it's killing me - how to stay authentic?

[Vynce]

18 hours ago, Emerald said:

And the issue in the first place is that they perceived themselves as nice guys when they were just ashamed and self-deprecating because of their shame, which doesn't have anything to do with being nice or pleasant to be around. 

Good point. Never had this thought so distinctly, but it makes total sense right now.

[Emerald]

13 minutes ago, Vynce said:

Good point. Never had this thought so distinctly, but it makes total sense right now.

Yeah, it's a common pattern that most women experience fairly early on in their dating life.

And it mostly comes from guys who are attached to the self-identification with niceness and never consider that they could be perceived as not so nice.

And I think it has to do with the societal and pop-cultural association of shame and self-deprecation with being a humble nice person. But shame doesn't actually translate to nice behavior. Shame often gets expressed as bitterness and vengeance towards the perceived aggressor (in this case women). 

Like, I've never heard an actually nice guy complaining about how women don't give him the time of day because he's nice.

But it's one of those common gender patterns that make people jerks without realizing it.

Like, most women go through a "not like the other girls" phase where they want to conceptualize themselves as "more like the guys because guys are less drama" and therefore different and superior to other girls. I used to be like this when I was between the ages of 10 and 13, and had no idea that I was being a jerk because this was a popular trope in movies and shows at the time for female protagonists.

And most men go through a "women don't like me because I'm nice" phase where they go into victim's mentality about how women only like assholes. And they start going on about how they're a victim to women friend zoning them. And a big part of it comes from misunderstanding what it means to actually be nice. And also thinking too logically and transactionally about relationship and thinking niceness is or should be the currency that buys relationship.

These patterns were around when I was in middle school... and I'm sure before then too. 

[Tenebroso]

@CARDOZZO I am already in shape that has never been a problem. Apparently I am a horrible person.

[whh2222]

3 hours ago, Emerald said:

Yeah, it's a common pattern that most women experience fairly early on in their dating life.

And it mostly comes from guys who are attached to the self-identification with niceness and never consider that they could be perceived as not so nice.

And I think it has to do with the societal and pop-cultural association of shame and self-deprecation with being a humble nice person. But shame doesn't actually translate to nice behavior. Shame often gets expressed as bitterness and vengeance towards the perceived aggressor (in this case women). 

Like, I've never heard an actually nice guy complaining about how women don't give him the time of day because he's nice.

But it's one of those common gender patterns that make people jerks without realizing it.

Like, most women go through a "not like the other girls" phase where they want to conceptualize themselves as "more like the guys because guys are less drama" and therefore different and superior to other girls. I used to be like this when I was between the ages of 10 and 13, and had no idea that I was being a jerk because this was a popular trope in movies and shows at the time for female protagonists.

And most men go through a "women don't like me because I'm nice" phase where they go into victim's mentality about how women only like assholes. And they start going on about how they're a victim to women friend zoning them. And a big part of it comes from misunderstanding what it means to actually be nice. And also thinking too logically and transactionally about relationship and thinking niceness is or should be the currency that buys relationship.

These patterns were around when I was in middle school... and I'm sure before then too. 

Just because ole buddy you called out is frustrated and upset with the state of things doesn't disqualify him from being 'nice'. I don't think your view of men's struggles in this field are 100% accurate, though there is some truth. 

The claim that truly nice men don’t complain about women overlooking them might be overly dismissive. People, regardless of gender, often struggle with rejection and unreciprocated affection, and it’s human to express frustration when one’s efforts are misunderstood or not valued.

Framing this frustration as inherently rooted in bitterness or vengeance toward women oversimplifies a wide range of emotional responses. Not all expressions of disappointment reflect entitlement or transactional thinking. Some might stem from genuine confusion or self-reflection about how to navigate relationships, especially in a culture with mixed signals about "niceness" versus confidence or assertiveness.

Edited Saturday at 01:18 AM by whh2222

[Buck Edwards]

51 minutes ago, whh2222 said:

when one’s efforts

What efforts 

[whh2222]

6 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

What efforts 

How do you always have a new avi  in the chamber? how are you online this much? 

[Buck Edwards]

3 minutes ago, whh2222 said:

How do you always have a new avi  in the chamber? how are you online this much? 

You didn't answer my question. My question was so precious. 

[whh2222]

12 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

You didn't answer my question. My question was so precious. 

Your question was a smartass question, so I followed it up with another 

 

[BlessedLion]

18 hours ago, Buck Edwards said:

@BlessedLion ok found it. Thank you. 

 

Weird the link and search didn’t work, but glad you found it ❤️🙏

 

Maybe I need to optimize SEO more 

[BlessedLion]

15 hours ago, Miguel1 said:

Yeah.

Certainly girls coming from all over the world to Las Vegas are not going there with ”I’m looking for a good character type of man” first in mind.

Quite the opposite.

Yes, exactly 

[CARDOZZO]

1 hour ago, Tenebroso said:

Apparently I am a horrible person.

You are not bro. You are divine. Keep going 

[ricachica]

18 hours ago, Buck Edwards said:

When I read your posts, I find you extremely intelligent. You have high self awareness and understanding. If someone doesn't appreciate it, it's really their own loss. It's great that you are now able to comfortably communicate. I appreciate that about your partner as well that he supports you. Relationships are about creating that unique beauty through mutual understanding and growth. That fine balance. I resonate so much with your experience, I grew up with an argumentative mother and a silent father and it honed in me that I should always keep my mouth shut and not argue too much. I saw the distress of my dad. So that obviously impacted my dating life too. In hindsight I was probably dating the wrong guy because I don't like drama, although I can argue, but drama adds a lot of stress to my life and I have autism on top of that, so it can get overwhelming for me to deal with someone who is dancing all around the place. 

I'm grateful and happy with my current partner, no fights at all and zero drama. It's the opposite image of my chaotic childhood and I feel very peaceful and joyous. 

Thank you so much for sharing your experience. 

I  think Teal has a video on childhood and dating patterns. I can't find it. 

But I found this. 

 

Aww you’re very sweet with your compliments! Thank you. I’m somewhat new here(not to Leo’s vids), but I’ve already noted your comments throughout the forum and always look forward to your well thought out perspectives.

I’ll watch your video before bed tonight, thanks for the share.

[Flint]

On 3/1/2025 at 0:33 AM, Emerald said:

The nature of the paradigm lock that Leo has that I'm referring to is that he tends to overlook humanity's communal filial nature and tries to boil human beings down to a Social Darwinian-esque paradigm.... which means seeing human dating/relationship dynamics as an objective hierarchical value exchange. 

It's sort of like stripping the humanity out of humanity... and believing that this kind of Darwinian reductionism will produce better insights about how human beings operate.

Well as incomplete it might seem it's the only working paradigm for a male to get a female partner of his choosing. There is the alternative of being alone or miserable but that's not great.

I'm very sorry, but humanity in dating ? It's ruthless. Like, have you ever been outside ? I'm not sure it's a particularity of stage orange at this point but dating feels very much inhumane. The value proposition always takes precendence over any human consideration because in the early stages of dating all that matters is the value exchange. The human aspects come later. But early on ? You get ghosted, disrespected, ignored, abused and everything in between if your value proposition is not good enough.

I very much so wished to be wrong and wished we could evolve towards more conscious dating but it's not how reality operates today. The "human beings" mostly operate as value exchange animals.

Which is already good progress over the beige dating scene, which was "male hits female with club, drags her into cave and rapes her".

[Twentyfirst]

It doesn’t help that these posts always group all women into one category. There are some women that are diamonds and some women that are worthless