Toxic dating works better and it's killing me - how to stay authentic?

[ricachica]

1 hour ago, Buck Edwards said:

I want to share a bit of my own experience which some of you might find absurd. I often feel conflicted inside because of this experience. 

This is about my ex. He was initially attracted to me. Within a few months of the relationship he said that he had lost attraction for me. He was attracted to this girl online. He used to chat with her a lot. He said that I was more beautiful than her but she was more exciting to him. He told me that he is attracted to women who love drama and who are spicy. He told me that I wasn't spicy enough for him, that i was a plain Jane in comparison to the woman he was attracted to online. He liked her because she would be dramatic, start fights and make him chase her. She would play hard to get and he liked it about her. He told me that he doesn't like the fact that I'm always cool and never start a fight, I don't give him the chase. 

I felt humiliated and I dumped him. 

He also told me that I was an exceptionally good woman but he would have liked me more if I had the spicy personality of that woman he was attracted to. 

I feel very confused about men after this. I'm not sure if this is an isolated experience. I always thought that men are attracted to women who are straightforward, no drama and maintain a cool temperament. They say they don't like "drama" woman and they hate women who bring that energy. They also say they want a good woman. And they often say they don't like a woman who plays hard to get. 

 

My first boyfriend in high school dumped me for similar reason. He dumped his previous girlfriend because he thought she was too much drama. I was the opposite, and very conflict avoidant. This stems from childhood, where I saw that my mother was extremely argumentative and I felt it led to my father to separate from her for a few years, which was painful for me. At a young age, I internalized this and vowed to be the opposite of my mother in my future relationships.

So when I started dating my boyfriend, I felt pretty proud that in 6 months, we had zero fights. He initially said it felt so good to be with me because I was not drama-filled like his ex. Towards the end, for a week he didn't text me at all...and even though this stressed me out, I suppressed that and never once brought it up. Thinking I was being a good girl for not being combative even in the slightest.

Turns out, that was not the best thing to do! He broke up with me after that week, and shocker, he said "I was too nice".... it completely baffled me. I even remember feeling like throwing up cause it was such a whirlwind and not what I expected at all. My whole life up until that point, I thought being the nice complaisant girl is what would save me from heartbreak...turns out no.

It was only like 6 months after the break up that it finally clicked with me one morning, and I was like omg! I let the pendulum swing too far in the other extreme! It is extreme and generally unattractive to most to be too drama-filled. It is also extreme and generally unattractive to be way too nice and doormat-like. In hindsight, you bet I should have texted him at least 1 day after he hadn't, not one week!

Today, I'm still definitely working on my conflict-avoidance issues, but I'm definitely much more balanced and willing to have an constructive argument at the least. Especially with my current boyfriend who encourages the communication and seeks to get to the root of the problem with me.

Edited January 3 by ricachica

[Buck Edwards]

3 minutes ago, ricachica said:

My first boyfriend in high school dumped me for similar reason. He dumped his previous girlfriend because he thought she was too much drama. I was the opposite, and very conflict avoidant. This stems from childhood, where I saw that my mother was extremely argumentative and I felt it led to my father to separate from her for a few years, which was painful for me. At a young age, I internalized this and vowed to be the opposite of my mother in my future relationships.

So when I started dating my boyfriend, I felt pretty proud that in 6 months, we had zero fights. He initially said it felt so good to be with me because I was not drama-filled like his ex. Towards the end, for a week he didn't text me at all...and even though this stressed me out, I suppressed that and never once brought it up. Thinking I was being a good girl for not being combative even in the slightest.

Turns out, that was not the best thing to do! He broke up with me after that week, and shocker, he said "I was too nice".... it completely baffled me. I even remember feeling like throwing up cause it was such a whirlwind and not what I expected at all. My whole life up until that point, I thought being the nice complacent girl is what would save me from heartbreak...turns out no.

It was only like 6 months after the break up that it finally clicked with me one morning, and I was like omg! I let the pendulum swing to far in the other extreme! It is extreme and generally unattractive to most to be too drama-filled. It is also extreme and generally unattractive to be way too nice and doormat-like. In hindsight, you bet I should have texted him at least 1 day after he hadn't, not one week!

Today, I'm still definitely working on my conflict-avoidance issues, but I'm definitely much more balanced and willing to have an constructive argument at the least. Especially with my current boyfriend who encourages the communication and seeks to get to the root of the problem with me.

When I read your posts, I find you extremely intelligent. You have high self awareness and understanding. If someone doesn't appreciate it, it's really their own loss. It's great that you are now able to comfortably communicate. I appreciate that about your partner as well that he supports you. Relationships are about creating that unique beauty through mutual understanding and growth. That fine balance. I resonate so much with your experience, I grew up with an argumentative mother and a silent father and it honed in me that I should always keep my mouth shut and not argue too much. I saw the distress of my dad. So that obviously impacted my dating life too. In hindsight I was probably dating the wrong guy because I don't like drama, although I can argue, but drama adds a lot of stress to my life and I have autism on top of that, so it can get overwhelming for me to deal with someone who is dancing all around the place. 

I'm grateful and happy with my current partner, no fights at all and zero drama. It's the opposite image of my chaotic childhood and I feel very peaceful and joyous. 

Thank you so much for sharing your experience. 

I  think Teal has a video on childhood and dating patterns. I can't find it. 

But I found this. 

 

[NewKidOnTheBlock]

4 hours ago, Buck Edwards said:

If you think so... If you think women are narcissists, well women are women and not much can be done about it. 

Yes, and we shouldn't be taking yall very seriously. Unfortunately we do, as a society

[AION]

5 hours ago, Emerald said:

Definitely insane. And I've encountered a lot of men in this nice guy/bad boy delusion when I was in my teens and early 20s.

And the issue in the first place is that they perceived themselves as nice guys when they were just ashamed and self-deprecating because of their shame, which doesn't have anything to do with being nice or pleasant to be around. 

But it tends to be the way good guy everyman main characters are written in movies to show that they are the good guy. So, they believe that being unassuming and self-critical makes them come off as nice and kind.

But they were already exuding red flag vibes that scare women away. They just weren't aware of it. But it comes through in the vibe.

And then, they think, "I guess women just like assholes. I need to become an asshole to get women to like me." But they were unconscious to the fact that they already were giving off asshole vibes.

And then, they become aggressive and the red flags become more overt and scare women away even more.

But they keep doubling down because they thought the issue was that they were a nice guy when they were never actually nice. 

And they will come to the conclusion, "I guess I wasn't enough of a bad boy to get sex. Let me triple down."

And the cycle repeats.

Perhaps in certain situation there are nice/bad guys who double down on the wrong paradigm. I don't think this is the pivot point what is going wrong though.

Usually there are more "knobs" to turn than the nice/bad guy knob. But in general it is not good to be a nice guy because these guys are handing out free niceness and people don't appreciate something they get for free.

In general it is better to be 100% yourself and in most cases you are not nice. It is actually better to not be nice because people will label that as "he is a guy who doesn't need to be nice so he is high value".. Yea, woman brain works like that. Probably most guys trying to bank on being fake nice and there is an inflation of fake niceness on the market.

It is better to crank up free expression aka charisma. Just telling how it is and trying out new things. Eventually you will find a shortie who will buy your bullshit.

 

Edited January 3 by AION

[Miguel1]

3 hours ago, BlessedLion said:

I think being in a place like Vegas you almost filter out materialistic, transactional, shallow women. You’d probably be blown away by the types of women you can meet in places aligned with higher values and conscious living 

Yeah.

Certainly girls coming from all over the world to Las Vegas are not going there with ”I’m looking for a good character type of man” first in mind.

Quite the opposite.

[Buck Edwards]

Generally a high value man doesn't need to be nice in my opinion. They aren't actually. Because women are attracted to them just naturally. They have many options. They want to have the comfort of women wanting and liking them. If I were a man and a high value one, it would be against my ego to approach women. I would look down on it. I would want women to flirt with me, I would want  them to be begging my validation and in fact I would be less interested in women in general. I just imagine it that way. There's a euphoria that comes with a lot of money and fame in life. You automatically feel full of yourself, it's difficult to resist the high that comes from fame and money. I would want a woman who is very playful and makes me feel like a friend, a companion and I would simply flirt with other women for the sake of fidelity. It sounds weird but that's how I imagine myself in the shoes of a high value man (someone with money, fame, integrity, looks and success). 

Now when I think from the above perspective, men chasing or approaching women sounds so pathetic. Sorry guys. 

Edited January 3 by Buck Edwards

[Miguel1]

I agree that most women are not attracted to character. But to say that no woman is, is wrong in my opinion.

Also, the other side of the coin is that a man with good character, leads to good integrity, leads to strong frame and reality, and thus, leading to attractive traits.

For example, my integrity makes me see girls’ bullshit. It leads me to not put up with their BS. Or at least have boundaries. It makes me stand my ground. It makes me have high standards. All these are very charming traits.

And when I look them directly in their eyes with my grounded look, what do you think is generated? Starts with an A, and something we have discussed for 10 pages.

My character leads me to having a good, happy life. What do you think this does, when meeting girls?

—-

The more developed a person is, the more they are drawn to high character.

Isn’t this what this whole work is about? We want to push human development further because we resonate with it, and it calls for our souls.

All that being said, most people are tribal monkeys and full of traumas.

Edited January 3 by Miguel1

[Princess Arabia]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Vegas is a thriving economy, growing fast, lots of opportunities.

I never said it wasn't. I could show lots of videos where people are living in the sewers and the vast majority of homeless people in Vegas also. Shit is everywhere. I lived in Vegas, so I'm not just guessing and I also lived in Pahrump and worked at the Harrah's casino there so I'm not just talking out my ass. Lots of people everywhere are addicted but major cities seem to be more prone. Anyway, I do see your point and It's been a while that I haven't been to Vegas and things change so I'm not disputing you as you currently live there and for me it was a few years back - like 10yrs or so. 

[Princess Arabia]

I think the problem with all these talks, assumptions, beliefs and ideas are stemming from the types of women and where they're at in their lives. Men also. You'll find a lot of young men loving drama-filled women because that also comes with it excitement and an allure. When these men tire of that and get older, they seem to prefer the ones with no drama. If you go on dating sites, you'll see evidence of this where a lot of the older men will say they want a drama-free female. I'm guessing it's because they were attracted to that before but didn't see the pay-off and it isn't attractive anymore. As @Buck Edwardssaid in her story, which I can totally relate to, they are attracted to that at first but I bet these same men at an older age won't be, and I've seen where a lot of drama-filled young women would get all the men flocking to them and these guys were also young. 

Also, men seem to go for the younger type women who are still learning about life and dating and have no clue about certain things and they judge all women to be attracted to bad boys and narcissists and men who treat them badly. I think after 30yrs old things change and people become wiser in their choices. Life is about stages, and we all go through them. Lots of people are also toxic and traumatized and will exhibit behaviors in accordance with that and make dumb choices when seeking out partnerships. I know personally, I don't like to be treated badly; and I have been through the bad boy stages and i will dump a guy immediately now if I see any signals that he's that type. Not interested. I see lots of generalizations from men about women in general, but all I can say about that is to be careful of the stigmas and beliefs you carry around because, on both sides, people will surprise you and you need to be ready when they turn out to be different from what you expected. Women who work in libraries and secretaries and nurses etc aren't always the types you think they are and the ones in the clubs and bars could be that wife material or "good girl" type with no-drama and could make for a terrific gf/wife/mate. Always enter this field with an open mind and be prepared to have your beliefs shattered. 

 

Edited January 3 by Princess Arabia

[integral]

11 hours ago, Buck Edwards said:

Yesterday I watched this video by Teal Swan. I must say she has exceptional insights on woman's behavior and psyche and thank God she exists. 

The video dispels a lot of myths about beautiful women and I relate to it a 100%. Most insightful video I saw so far. 

A lot of these myths are actually created and spread by men, one such example is your post. 

Maybe you should watch this video too. Give it a try if you care. 

 

*   Society highly values physical beauty in women, which creates a unique set of challenges despite appearances.
*   Beautiful women are often sought for the esteem they provide others, not for genuine connection, leading to relationship difficulties.
*   Many relationships with beautiful women are based on a hidden "esteem transaction," causing conflict when she acts outside of it.
*   Beautiful women often experience rejection because people are in love with an idea of them, not who they are.
*   People often act inauthentically in dating, and this is amplified for beautiful women who are pursued for a false image.
*   Beautiful women experience isolation due to insecurities of others, leading to a lack of genuine friendships.
*   Jilted lovers of beautiful women often become enemies, making relationships emotionally unsafe.
*   A beautiful woman's existence triggers egos in others, leading to zero-sum games and distrust.
*   Society sends mixed messages about beauty, simultaneously valuing and vilifying beautiful women.
*   Beautiful women are often presumed stupid and their pain is dismissed due to their perceived "blessed" state.
*   Beautiful women live under constant scrutiny, facing pressure from others' attention and judgment.
*   Beautiful women are often approached by people with dangerous psychologies, as well as rescuers who need them to remain dysfunctional.
*   People tend to move away from beautiful women in everyday interactions, leading to social isolation.
*   Beautiful women are stripped of their merit, with success often attributed to their looks, not their abilities.
*   Beautiful women may struggle to develop their true selves, as their identity is often tied to their appearance.
*   Beautiful women are often blamed for infidelity and sexual harassment, rather than the perpetrators.
*   Medical professionals may minimize the health issues of beautiful women, due to a bias linking looks with health.
*   Beautiful women endure relentless sexual harassment, from unwanted touching to sexual commentary.
*   Beautiful women are taught their value is in their looks, causing deep fear of aging and loss of beauty.
*   The more beautiful a woman is perceived, the more intense and negative these patterns and downsides become.
---
 I think both perspectives are true and it just depends on the type of person and their temperament and their upbringing on how their development unfolds.

Also both perspectives are focusing on a completely different problem exactly like how Leo and emerald are talking past each other. We're all talking past each other.

Edited January 3 by integral

[integral]

10 hours ago, BlessedLion said:

Psych hacks is wack, that dude is clearly bitter and scarily obsessive about over analyzing all this shit. Just come back to the Heart. Realize that both men and women are imperfect and have needs from each other. Laugh about it and relax, instead of hyper analyzing and subtly trying to control and protect yourself and your stupid ego from getting hurt. Consider that Love is natural, and you don’t need to do all this analyzing it’s insane 

Definitely I think we just have to take these things not as some biblical truth. I think analyzing everything makes a lot of sense, not to assume all this Theory applies in every situation or even at all in most situations. It's all partial truths.

6 hours ago, Buck Edwards said:

Generally a high value man doesn't need to be nice in my opinion. They aren't actually. Because women are attracted to them just naturally. They have many options. They want to have the comfort of women wanting and liking them. If I were a man and a high value one, it would be against my ego to approach women. I would look down on it. I would want women to flirt with me, I would want  them to be begging my validation and in fact I would be less interested in women in general. I just imagine it that way. There's a euphoria that comes with a lot of money and fame in life. You automatically feel full of yourself, it's difficult to resist the high that comes from fame and money. I would want a woman who is very playful and makes me feel like a friend, a companion and I would simply flirt with other women for the sake of fidelity. It sounds weird but that's how I imagine myself in the shoes of a high value man (someone with money, fame, integrity, looks and success). 

Now when I think from the above perspective, men chasing or approaching women sounds so pathetic. Sorry guys. 

A high value guy is nice, a self-absorbed man is not nice. You could be low value and nice and you can be high value and self-absorbed.

It's a different line of development.

You don't need to bend over backwards to be nice to someone (low value), you don't need to be fake or inauthentic to be nice to someone, you could be yourself and be comfortable and secure and are naturally nice to people. And it shows up completely differently than fake nice.

Whether you are high value or low value, you can be nice to people or you can be completely self-absorbed.

A guru is nice to everyone and high value and secure. And if they're not nice they are doing it out of love and if they're not doing out of love they're not having a good day. Sometimes people have emotions, shocking.

Edited January 3 by integral

[integral]

10 hours ago, Buck Edwards said:

I want to share a bit of my own experience which some of you might find absurd. I often feel conflicted inside because of this experience. 

This is about my ex. He was initially attracted to me. Within a few months of the relationship he said that he had lost attraction for me. He was attracted to this girl online. He used to chat with her a lot. He said that I was more beautiful than her but she was more exciting to him. He told me that he is attracted to women who love drama and who are spicy. He told me that I wasn't spicy enough for him, that i was a plain Jane in comparison to the woman he was attracted to online. He liked her because she would be dramatic, start fights and make him chase her. She would play hard to get and he liked it about her. He told me that he doesn't like the fact that I'm always cool and never start a fight, I don't give him the chase. 

I felt humiliated and I dumped him. 

He also told me that I was an exceptionally good woman but he would have liked me more if I had the spicy personality of that woman he was attracted to. 

I feel very confused about men after this. I'm not sure if this is an isolated experience. I always thought that men are attracted to women who are straightforward, no drama and maintain a cool temperament. They say they don't like "drama" woman and they hate women who bring that energy. They also say they want a good woman. And they often say they don't like a woman who plays hard to get. 

I think in my situation, he didn't really love me or like me. He probably likes the chase more than the woman. It's like the more she is "unattainable" the more he is attracted to her. 

In my relationship with him, he got progressively more hateful and abusive and he would start fights, act like a jerk and provoke me for nothing. It's like he loved the stimulation of drama, fighting, tension, conflict. 

I finally found my wholesome man who loves and appreciates me being peaceful with him. 

To this day that experience with my ex has left me confused about men. Men say women are attracted to bad boys. Is my experience the male version of it? Maybe even men are attracted to toxic women, they probably find good women boring no matter how beautiful she might be. At least that's the gist I got from that experience. 

Or maybe it was a toxic dating experience. And I shouldn't base men off of that experience. 

Because women that are good in bed are highly emotional, and express very strong emotions during sex and the man perceive that as great sex. Sexual attraction is completely different from other forms of attraction. Immature men are seeking highly sexually stimulating women. If you're super unstable and emotionally and all over the place you are perceived as way better in bed. This is why men are attracted to women that are not good for them.

The most insane sex from the male's perspective is when the woman is extremely emotional. Obviously! This is the whole point of why we are attracted to women.

Of course, it doesn't mean you're actually good in bed; you could be terrible in bed, but before a man sleeps with you, he doesn't know that, and so he's sexually stimulated and becoming super attracted to super emotionally unstable women. Of course, in reality, you never want to go anywhere near women that are just unstable, but from the outside, you want to have sex with them; that's how men think.

Women are attracted to bad boys who are not good for them, and men are attracted to unstable, emotional women who are not good for them. That's the other side of the coin.

This is why business woman are perceived as super unattractive. Of course a guy is not turned on by a successful woman, she behaves calmly, intelligently and all of this is not sexually stimulating in bed.

Edited January 3 by integral

[Tenebroso]

12 hours ago, Emerald said:

I'm just going to give it to you straight because it would do you a disservice otherwise.

You don't really give off the vibes of a good man. And you don't come across as kind or nice.

I'm not saying you come across as bad or evil... but you come across as self-deprecating and having the potential to be quite toxic because of your victim narratives.

And that makes you a potential emotional and physical danger from a woman's perspective because you see women as more powerful than you and are very attached to how women think about you... and you won't be attuned to the fact that you actually have more power than them physically.

Fascinating, I can only laugh. What you are really saying is "you said something I disagree with, therefore you are a bad person" It's disappointing and frankly pathetic, I never made a personal comment on your character. I am a potential emotional and physical danger because I provide insights and observations that make you and women like you uncomfortable.

The truth is that none of this is really about vibe or character, you and other women have no great intuition for sussing out who a man really is in person or online. 

[Emerald]

11 hours ago, Raze said:

Then why do you assume any nice guy who gets rejected must secretly be a asshole person and the woman sensed the red flags? Maybe he actually is nice but isn’t confident and doesn’t push the envelope.
 

And why don’t they sense the red flags when it’s with the charming narcissist?

My experiences are that guys who go "I'm too nice, I need to be an asshole." are usually already giving off some 'not so nice' tendencies.

And they come across as desperate and needy... and potentially emotionally and/or physically dangerous because of that.

And Narcissists often go underneath people's radar because people are susceptible to being seduced and charmed. And Narcissists are more detached. So, people don't catch on unless they have really developed that kind of radar.

With the "Self-Identified Nice Guys", they're usually not as smooth socially and they're attached. And they believe their lack of assertiveness and self-deprecation makes them nice. It's kind of like awkward everyman male protagonist syndrome, where they define neutral qualities as nice.

And so, they operate from a place of bitterness. And people can tell both before and after they decide to "become an asshole" that they're not very nice.

[Emerald]

3 minutes ago, Tenebroso said:

Fascinating, I can only laugh. What you are really saying is "you said something I disagree with, therefore you are a bad person" It's disappointing and frankly pathetic, I never made a personal comment on your character. I am a potential emotional and physical danger because I provide insights and observations that make you and women like you uncomfortable.

The truth is that none of this is really about vibe or character, you and other women have no great intuition for sussing out who a man really is in person or online. 

I understand that you don't like what I said. But you should be aware that that's the way you come off with your victim narratives. People will not interpret you as nice. They'll interpret you as a potential emotional and physical danger because of your victim's mentality.

People who identify as victim's see others as villains. And then, they try to become the hero that defeats those villains. And that's what makes them end up playing the villain role.

So, people will stay away from people who are in victim's mentality for that reason. People with victim's mentality can be dangerous because they don't see the vulnerabilities of the other... only their own vulnerability.

I recommend really pondering into this dynamic. It's a bitter pill. But it's true.

[integral]

@Buck Edwards the reason you are confused is the same reason men get confused when they listen to women's advice. That guy does not understand how his own attraction works and so he's labeling certain things about your behavior as unattractive but really that has nothing to do with how his own attraction system works.

In the same way when women tell men how attraction works they're giving bad advice in general because they themselves don't understand their own attraction system.

Now I am not talking about the women on this forum who have spent 10 years studying consciousness lol

I'm talking about that average guy who appeared in your life who is randomly attracted to things and has no idea what he's saying when he critiques your behavior.

Can you imagine how disastrous it would be if you took his advice. lol

Also when I'm breaking up with a woman basically or telling her that things aren't working out well I'm being very very selective in what I'm saying and I'm lying to her and I'm putting her down easy. I'm not telling her the raw hard blunt truth. I'm not trying to destroy people's lives or make them enlightened, I'm trying to get out of a situation here. Men are going to lie in many situations not to make you feel bad.

Edited January 3 by integral

[Tenebroso]

27 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I understand that you don't like what I said. But you should be aware that that's the way you come off with your victim narratives. People will not interpret you as nice. They'll interpret you as a potential emotional and physical danger because of your victim's mentality.

People who identify as victim's see others as villains. And then, they try to become the hero that defeats those villains. And that's what makes them end up playing the villain role.

So, people will stay away from people who are in victim's mentality for that reason. People with victim's mentality can be dangerous because they don't see the vulnerabilities of the other... only their own vulnerability.

I recommend really pondering into this dynamic. It's a bitter pill. But it's true.

Who has a bigger victim complex than women today. Do women see or embrace male vulnerability? Absolutely not. People will stay away from others for all kinds of irrational reasons that have nothing to do with a person's actual value and character. 

You seem to operate with a just world fallacy, where people mostly men get what they deserve. So if you are lonely, struggling etc you must be a bad person. I guess all those serial killers, pimps, drug dealers, thieves with wives and multiple girlfriends are wonderful.

Edited January 3 by Tenebroso

[Emerald]

2 minutes ago, Tenebroso said:

Who has a bigger victim complex than women today. Do women see or embrace male vulnerability? Absolutely not. People will stay away from others for all kinds of irrational reasons that have nothing to do with a person's actual value and character. 

ou seem to operate with a just world fallacy, where people mostly men get what they deserve. So if you are lonely, struggling etc you must be a bad person. I guess all those serial killers, pimps, drug dealers, thieves with wives and multiple girlfriends are wonderful.

This is just more victim's mentality and blaming the other to shift the burden of responsibility for your own desires and life onto others. And that's what's repellent to women... and men alike.

Stop caring about what other people have going on, and focus on building your life in the way you want it.

There are tons of toxic men and women out there. But I don't worry about them and what they're doing because they're not going to affect anything in my own life as long as I have healthy boundaries and I proactively build relationships with people that feel good to be around.

[CARDOZZO]

@Tenebroso

Hit the gym. Become a god. Stop this victim mentality.

You have divine potential. Allow.

[CARDOZZO]

@Tenebroso

Don't let the redpill choke yourself. Swallow + Integration.

That's it. Move on.