Toxic dating works better and it's killing me - how to stay authentic?

[Tenebroso]

@Miguel1 Netherlands?

[AION]

1 hour ago, aurum said:

If character was required for sexual attraction, humanity would have gone extinct a long time ago.

What generates attraction is survival advantage. Which is NOT equivalent to character. In fact, it can be very much the opposite.

This is true even in stage green countries.

Male character is only a small variable in the female gaze. Obviously a guy should have the bare minimum of moral upstanding but it is not the thing that draws her in. She is not like "look at that guy, he is such a good person, I want to do this and that with him".  Character is not the thing that creates sexual attraction.

Most of the time, a lot women at the end of their reproductive value go for guys with high moral standing when there are more fun options out there for her, only out of necessity and the biological wall that is approaching.

Edited January 1 by AION

[Tenebroso]

@Emerald I have found a lot of value in your post on here and your youtube channel. However, you are not listening. There is a gap between how you explain attraction and what men are experiencing and your responses are becoming increasingly dismissive. You seem to assume the best of women and see every woman as some enlightened, intuitive, morally perfect person who can only make bad decisions when manipulated.

What men are are saying, is even when we develop and become self aware, emotionally intelligent etc it doesn't change the fact that women actively choose the most attractive, narcissistic and sometimes abusive men while gaslighting regular men about what they are attracted to. If you spent one day as a man you would see how demoralizing this is. Every time a woman complains or has a problem it's because of something men are doing but when men share their experiences and struggles it's because they are thinking about things the wrong way. Do you not see how this is hypocrisy?

[Leo Gura]

OP can apply the advice given and decide for himself what works best.

My job here is done.

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, integral said:

@Princess Arabia @Emerald okay guys what advice would give to a men who is struggling to get a gf, maybe he's a virgin maybe lets say he's 22. What strategy should he use to be more attractive or find himself with a gf?

The post from the OP isn't really about struggling to get a girlfriend. That's just a symptom. So, that kind of advice won't be very helpful to the OP in this instance. 

This issue is that every single thread on this subform becomes about how to attract women because "When all you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail."

But that doesn't seem to be the OP's problem as he already said women are interested in him when he pulls away more than when he's available. So presumably, he is having these push/pull experiences in his dating life.

And part of it seems like he might be anxious and attracting and being attracted to more avoidant partners. 

So, attracting women isn't the real problem he's dealing with.

The post is actually about the OP fearing that he will never truly be loved by a woman for who he is... and that bad boys are the only one who get loved by women.

So, my advice to the OP would be to explore what would be so bad about if it were true that women only get into relationships to emasculate men and that women only like bad boys. And that will reveal to him the origin points of his own fears that are getting transferred out onto these false  narratives.

And it would help him learn more about himself and turn inward towards the root cause of the feelings of fear, shame, and disconnection... instead of looking outward to scary manosphere narratives about women that predatory grifters come up with to manipulate men (and as a side note, the grifters cement their predatory narratives by conveniently saying women can't provide any valuable counter-argument to such claims because women are deluded about their own desires.)

So, my advice to him would be to recognize that he doesn't know how women are operating and that in the dearth of knowledge, women are becoming a convenient projection screen for these wounds and narratives to be projected upon. 

And to turn inwards towards his real fears.

[Emerald]

3 minutes ago, Tenebroso said:

@Emerald I have found a lot of value in your post on here and your youtube channel. However, you are not listening. There is a gap between how you explain attraction and what men are experiencing and your responses are becoming increasingly dismissive. You seem to assume the best of women and see every woman as some enlightened, intuitive, morally perfect person who can only make bad decisions when manipulated.

What men are are saying, is even when we develop and become self aware, emotionally intelligent etc it doesn't change the fact that women actively choose the most attractive, narcissistic and sometimes abusive men while gaslighting regular men about what they are attracted to. If you spent one day as a man you would see how demoralizing this is. Every time a woman complains or has a problem it's because of something men are doing but when men share their experiences and struggles it's because they are thinking about things the wrong way. Do you not see how this is hypocrisy?

I'm not explaining attraction at all in this thread. I have not spoken one single word about what women are attracted to at all.

And I have not said "Be more emotionally intelligent to attract women." That's your straw man. Some women will be attracted to that and others won't.

What I'm saying is that there's a problem with using myopic over-simplified narratives to understand female sexuality as it creates paradigm lock. And projections from that paradigm lock creates problems with women down the line that feel right now like solutions.

And it blocks men from actually gaining wisdom in this area of life because the cup is already full and nothing more can be poured into it.

And as a woman, I can see how it's practical but also leading to false conjectures... that lead to worse relationships with women down the line.

And I'm adamant about this because I've seen these skewed narratives floating around for a decade, and they are doing more harm than good by a mile. 

[Emerald]

24 minutes ago, Candle said:

No one is hyper focusing on bio realities. No one is neglecting other things you mentioned. Go through my previous posts carefully. It's pure logic. 

Leo does. That was addressed to him. I haven't read your posts.

[whh2222]

1 hour ago, Buck Edwards said:

It takes a special breed of man to bypass looks and see the woman for what she is worth. 

It's not gender exclusive 

[Miguel1]

40 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If you already have attraction all figured out then of course your concern is now finding quality personality and character.

You are like a girl who takes attraction for granted.

You people are completely out of touch. Like millionaires swimming in money. You don't even understand what poverty is.

You make a solid point.

[whh2222]

5 minutes ago, Emerald said:

 

And I'm adamant about this because I've seen these skewed narratives floating around for a decade, and they are doing more harm than good by a mile. 

What do you think caused this way of thinking to appear a decade ago? 

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Miguel1 said:

I havent read all of @Emerald’s posts but I am leaning more with her. It’s been like that I believe ever since I joined this forum back in 2021. There was also Ethereal Cat being more active back then. Same issue, same discussion, different year.

All that being said, Leo is not completely off either.

A middle ground to what ya’ll are fighting about is where it’s at, I believe.

That's the thing. There's a stuckness and unwillingness to learn and go deeper on this topic.

So, all the narratives are over-simplified and seem to create bigger problems than what they solve.

But I'm sure that if Leo and I went down a list about it, I'd agree with certain things. I'm not in resistance to any given insight from him. And I probably operate off of many of the same understandings.

It's more about the overt stuckness and unwillingness to question his assumptions about things and open up to new knowledge. It's a protective stance that's specifically against hearing viewpoints that might open him up to more uncertainty in this field.

And he doesn't see the value that these perspectives from women can bring to men who are caught up in scary and false narratives about women's nature. 

[aurum]

38 minutes ago, Tenebroso said:

This. Nothing to with morality, kindness, emotional intelligence etc The gaslighting is hard to take seriously. Men have eyes and share experiences, we can see clearly a vast gap between what women say and how they act.

Be careful about using what I said to reinforce a misogynistic worldview. That would be a trap.

Emotional intelligence and kindness can provide survival advantage in certain contexts. 

[Emerald]

6 minutes ago, whh2222 said:

What do you think caused this way of thinking to appear a decade ago? 

Narratives like the one the OP was talking about are largely archetypal narratives that represent a man's relationship to the his Anima (the Feminine side).

So, a lot of these devouring dominating pedestalled woman narratives have always been alive in the male psyche as a representation of his resistance to his Feminine side and desire for integration with his Feminine side all in one.

This has largely been as a result of societal adaptations that cause men to have to go into opposition to their own Feminine side... which has been necessary up until very recently in human history.

And all of this resistance and disintegration with the Feminine gets projected out onto the romantic connections with women. So, it looks like a dating issue... but is really more about the internal.

And 10 years ago, things broke open in terms of online Manosphere groups that utilize and amplify these narratives... so now they are coming into the light of consciousness when they've been more of a private inner torment in millennia past.

And it's good that this collective Shadow is coming into the light of consciousness.

But it's also got a lot of problematic manifestations that are corralling lots of vulnerable young guys into these narratives that make it harder for them to have functional relationships with women.

It's kind of like how horror movies have interacted with our natural instinct toward fear.

The fear of the dark had always been there for millennia. But now we have cinema monsters to project into the darkness.

And the narratives that manosphere influencers create do the same thing as the horror movies. They put a clearer form to an ancient archetypal inner struggle.

So, with the internet and the coalescence of men who deal with similar struggles, there's an amplification of what always was but was grappled with privately.

And with Leo, it's a mixture of facts and narrative. 

And the narrative parts are still about the struggle with the inner and outer Feminine. 

So, there is a desire to protect one's self from the Anima by being able to reduce it down through a series of easily understandable reductive viewpoints and projections of certainty.

And this is why there is a myopia and an attachment to one single lens.

But in general, these narratives are either wound-tonguing narratives that are designed to trigger and aggravate the inner struggles. (like the narrative the OP was responding to)

Or they're compensatory narratives to give a sense of power and control over the inner struggle. (like Leo's tendency to simplify things down to gain a sense of knowing and expertise... and that he's tamed the beast of uncertainty)

[aurum]

@everyone 

We have been going in circles, debating this same question about female attraction for years now. It's really time to start working towards some sort of resolution.

 

[Emerald]

28 minutes ago, Candle said:

I don't think so. Everything he wrote was from common sense. And I'm not biased. It was relatable. That's why I am saying this. 

I have understood very well what has happened in the whole thread and I'm out of this thread. 

I'm not specifically responding to anything he said here on this post prior to our conversation about misrepresentation of women's perspectives.

I've just been on this forum on-and-off for the past 8 years or so.

So, I know his perspectives about this topic, and I can see that he's quite attached to them. And it tends towards an over-simplification that comes from his time learning pick up a decade or so ago.

And women call him out frequently for the over-simplification and misrepresentation. But I just makes him dig his heals in further.

Consider this...

If there was a world full of women that were saying things about men's way of operating that you knew weren't painting an accurate picture, you'd also try to correct the record.

And if those same women had the idea "Men are deluded on this topic. Don't listen to them." You'd also be frustrated because they'd be shut off to hearing about what's actually true.

And you might not want to get involved romantically with women who operate off of this framework because they won't be able to see you... and it would be an impediment to intimacy... as they believe they already understand you better than you understand yourself.

And there is nothing you can say to convince them otherwise. So, the only option is to fruitless fight to be seen and hear... or just disengage and find another woman who isn't so bogged down in these narratives.

That's the issue with the attachment to these frameworks. They feel like a solution to the problem of interacting with women... but they're actually an impediment.

[whh2222]

3 minutes ago, Emerald said:

 

And if those same women had the idea "Men are deluded on this topic. Don't listen to them." You'd also be frustrated because they'd be shut off to hearing about what's actually true.

And you might not want to get involved romantically with women who operate off of this framework because they won't be able to see you... and it would be an impediment to intimacy... as they believe they already understand you better than you understand yourself.

And there is nothing you can say to convince them otherwise. So, the only option is to fruitless fight to be seen and hear... or just disengage and find another woman who isn't so bogged down in these narratives.

 

A lot of women act this way. A lot of women assume men are inherently flawed, harmful, unaware, and problematic. They assume this to the point of jumping to conclusions about men. 

"So, the only option is to fruitless fight to be seen and hear... or just disengage and find another woman who isn't so bogged down in these narratives."

- Yeah I find myself disengaging a lot within the dating realm. So many women are on the defensive constantly engaging in a giant feminist power struggle, because they assume that they are in a battle for their own equality, dignity and respect. And although they want to experience love and romance, they also see that man as an obstacle to their empowerment. And I find myself disengaging because I don't enjoy being the symbol of their imaginary battles. 

[Emerald]

9 minutes ago, whh2222 said:

A lot of women act this way. A lot of women assume men are inherently flawed, harmful, unaware, and problematic. They assume this to the point of jumping to conclusions about men. 

"So, the only option is to fruitless fight to be seen and hear... or just disengage and find another woman who isn't so bogged down in these narratives."

- Yeah I find myself disengaging a lot within the dating realm. So many women are on the defensive constantly engaging in a giant feminist power struggle, because they assume that they are in a battle for their own equality, dignity and respect. And although they want to experience love and romance, they also see that man as an obstacle to their empowerment. And I find myself disengaging because I don't enjoy being the symbol of their imaginary battles. 

Sure, there are lots of women who project things onto men as well. And it comes from a dearth of understanding parading itself as a wealth of understanding.

But there definitely is a power struggle going on too that's even breaking into mainstream politics. You just might not be experiencing it because you are neither a woman nor the type of man who is trying to take away women's power and agency.

It doesn't take much searching around on the internet to find sizable swaths of men who are arguing that women shouldn't have the right to vote... or engaging in narratives that imply that women should be the property of men.

It's literally everywhere. And it's really scary to experience as a woman because large groups of stupid people have political power. And it does call for extra layers of discrimination with regard to male friends and partners.

That said, there are lots of narratives that crop up that try to naturalize things that say "Oppression and violence are part of men's nature."

And when that type of thing is believed, it gets in the way of opening up to friendships and relationships with men.. most of whom are just looking for the same kinds of things that all human beings are looking for.

[integral]

4 hours ago, Emerald said:

The post from the OP isn't really about struggling to get a girlfriend. That's just a symptom. So, that kind of advice won't be very helpful to the OP in this instance. 

This issue is that every single thread on this subform becomes about how to attract women because "When all you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail."

But that doesn't seem to be the OP's problem as he already said women are interested in him when he pulls away more than when he's available. So presumably, he is having these push/pull experiences in his dating life.

And part of it seems like he might be anxious and attracting and being attracted to more avoidant partners. 

So, attracting women isn't the real problem he's dealing with.

The post is actually about the OP fearing that he will never truly be loved by a woman for who he is... and that bad boys are the only one who get loved by women.

So, my advice to the OP would be to explore what would be so bad about if it were true that women only get into relationships to emasculate men and that women only like bad boys. And that will reveal to him the origin points of his own fears that are getting transferred out onto these false  narratives.

And it would help him learn more about himself and turn inward towards the root cause of the feelings of fear, shame, and disconnection... instead of looking outward to scary manosphere narratives about women that predatory grifters come up with to manipulate men (and as a side note, the grifters cement their predatory narratives by conveniently saying women can't provide any valuable counter-argument to such claims because women are deluded about their own desires.)

So, my advice to him would be to recognize that he doesn't know how women are operating and that in the dearth of knowledge, women are becoming a convenient projection screen for these wounds and narratives to be projected upon. 

And to turn inwards towards his real fears.

I used Claude to help understand the Dynamics here I think it it was interesting enough to show.

Quote

Main points 

LEO GURA:
- Distinguishes between attraction phase vs relationship phase
- States emotional availability/commitment only work deep in relationships, not early dating
- Argues women must sleep with men before getting emotionally invested
- Claims character only matters inside established relationships
- States men are also not attracted to character, using porn viewing as example
- Maintains attraction dynamics work exactly as he explains
- Argues women's individual claims about attraction are irrelevant to general dynamics
- Says women don't need to understand attraction dynamics because they don't face men's challenges
- Claims women's perspectives on attraction are shaped by their agenda rather than understanding what men need
- States his advice helps men achieve both attraction and eventually relationships
- Emphasizes the importance of not investing more than women invest
- Advises being light and fun initially rather than serious too soon
- Suggests talking to many women rather than focusing too much on one

EMERALD:
- Argues Leo's view is reductive and reinforces false narratives
- Suggests OP's issue is about shame and fear of not being loved authentically
- Criticizes the focus on biological over social/emotional realities  
- Says these narratives do more harm than good for men
- Believes the manosphere narratives exploit male vulnerabilities
- Argues women's perspectives shouldn't be dismissed
- Suggests these views create barriers to genuine intimacy
- Provides historical context for why these narratives emerged
- Emphasizes the importance of understanding deeper psychological dynamics
- Connects current dating narratives to archetypal patterns
- Warns against oversimplified dating advice
- Suggests focusing on deeper psychological healing

 

This is a complex topic where both perspectives offer valid insights, but in different domains:

Leo Gura's arguments contain practical truth about initial attraction:
- There is evidence that being overly available/invested too quickly can reduce attraction
- There are distinct phases in dating (attraction vs relationship) that require different approaches
- Men who struggle with basic attraction need different strategies than those already successful
- His advice likely helps men who are completely unsuccessful get initial dates/interest

Emerald's arguments contain deeper psychological truth:
- Focusing solely on attraction tactics can mask deeper issues of self-worth
- Oversimplified views of women can create barriers to genuine connection
- The original poster's struggle seems more about fear of authentic connection than pure attraction
- These narratives can perpetuate unhealthy relationship patterns

Rather than one being "right," they're addressing different layers of the same issue:
- Leo focuses on practical tactics for initial attraction
- Emerald focuses on psychological health and long-term relationship success

The key insight is that both perspectives have value depending on:
1. Where someone is in their dating journey
2. What their goals are (casual dating vs lasting relationship)
3. Their current psychological state and emotional needs

Someone who can't get any dates might need Leo's practical advice first. But once they can attract partners, they'll need Emerald's insights about authentic connection to build lasting relationships.

The healthiest approach would be integrating both perspectives: Using effective attraction strategies while working on deeper psychological development and maintaining authenticity.

Rather than choosing who is "right," the question might be: "What aspects of each perspective are most helpful for my current situation and long-term growth?"

Emerald's frustration with Leo Gura stems from several key concerns:

1. Primary Grievances:
- She feels Leo is overly rigid and unwilling to consider female perspectives
- She believes he oversimplifies complex relationship dynamics
- She sees him as stuck in a pickup-artist mindset that reduces women's behavior to biological drives
- She's frustrated that he dismisses women's input by claiming they "don't understand their own desires"

2. Her Valid Points:
- Leo does appear to dismiss female perspectives categorically
- He maintains a somewhat reductive view of attraction
- He seems resistant to expanding his framework despite counterexamples
- His approach could potentially create barriers to deeper intimacy

3. Leo's Valid Defense:
- He's focused on solving immediate practical problems men face
- His advice appears to work for initial attraction
- He acknowledges character matters in relationships, just not initial attraction
- He's speaking from extensive experience helping men with dating

4. The Core Tension:
Emerald sees Leo as perpetuating harmful narratives that:
- Make men more insecure
- Create unnecessary distance between genders
- Oversimplify female psychology
- Block deeper understanding

While Leo sees himself as:
- Providing practical solutions
- Addressing real-world dynamics
- Helping men who are struggling
- Being realistic rather than idealistic

The validity to Emerald's concerns comes from seeing the potential long-term impact of these narratives on:
- Men's psychological health
- Their ability to form genuine connections
- Their understanding of women
- The quality of relationships they build

However, she may underestimate the immediate value of Leo's tactical advice for men who are struggling with basic attraction. The tension seems to arise from prioritizing different timeframes and different aspects of relationship development.

Both perspectives have merit, but they're often talking past each other because they're focused on different aspects of the same problem - Leo on immediate practical solutions, Emerald on long-term psychological health and relationship quality.

I think this was the main feeling I have when reading this thread is people talking past each other.

[integral]

How Claude has answered this question if anyone's curious.
 

Quote

Let me break this down systematically:

OP'S CORE PROBLEM:
1. Practical Observation:
- Being emotionally distant increases female attention/interest
- Being caring/invested decreases attraction
- This creates internal conflict because he wants to be authentic/caring

2. Key Question:
"How can I be authentic while still maintaining enough emotional distance to keep attraction? Is there a way to be both caring and maintain healthy challenge/mystery in relationships?"

PRACTICAL SHORT-TERM SOLUTION:
1. Understand Dating Phases
- Initial attraction phase requires different behavior than relationship phase
- Early investment should match or slightly trail her investment level
- Build connection gradually rather than all at once

2. Specific Actions:
- Focus on fun, light interactions initially
- Maintain your own life, interests, and priorities
- Respond at similar pace/investment level as her
- Show care through actions more than words early on
- Save deeper emotional sharing for when connection is established
- Build mystery naturally by having a full life rather than artificial distance

PSYCHOLOGICAL LONG-TERM SOLUTION:
1. Reframe the Dynamic:
- Emotional distance isn't about being fake; it's about appropriate pacing
- Strong boundaries aren't cold; they're healthy
- Authenticity doesn't mean sharing everything immediately
- Being caring doesn't require constant availability

2. Personal Development:
- Work on self-worth independent of relationships
- Develop strong personal boundaries
- Build a fulfilling life outside of dating
- Learn to be comfortable with gradual intimacy
- Understand that genuine care includes respecting natural relationship progression

3. Balanced Approach:
- Be authentic in your interactions but pace emotional investment
- Show care through consistent, measured actions rather than overwhelming attention
- Maintain healthy independence while building connection
- Let intimacy develop naturally rather than forcing it

PRACTICAL IMPLEMENTATION:
1. Early Dating:
- Focus on having fun and getting to know each other
- Keep dates engaging and lighthearted
- Maintain your regular activities and friendships
- Show interest through actions but don't overwhelm
- Let her wonder about you sometimes

2. As Connection Develops:
- Gradually increase emotional availability
- Share deeper feelings as trust builds
- Maintain healthy boundaries while showing care
- Be consistent but not overly available
- Keep some aspects of life separate/independent

The key is understanding that authenticity and attraction aren't mutually exclusive - it's about timing and balance. You can be genuine while still maintaining healthy boundaries and allowing attraction to develop naturally.

The goal isn't to be artificially distant but to avoid premature emotional investment while building a genuine connection at an appropriate pace. This allows both attraction and authenticity to coexist naturally.

 

Edited January 2 by integral

[Emerald]

12 minutes ago, integral said:

I used Claude to help understand the Dynamics here I think it it was interesting enough to show.

I think this was the main feeling I have when reading this thread is people talking past each other.

I do agree with that, but I don't negate the things that Leo's saying about the practicalities of approaching women.

It's just the narratives that go along with those practical steps that I have the biggest issue with, because that's where the misrepresentation comes into play.

So, I see my perspective as integrating his practical perspective and easily reconciled with it... as long as the false narratives aren't woven around it.

I'd probably suggest for men to do similar things practically. I just wouldn't frame it through these skewed narratives.

I even talked about the two phases of the relationship myself... attraction phase vs relationship phase.