Who Here Has Children?

[Yimpa]

Trump owns me now because I am a lib 

[Davino]

13 minutes ago, Daniel Balan said:

Without the fence, my poultry would be killed by stray dogs and other predators like foxes and polecats. Beyond the fence, I have crop fields, and if the hens, ducks, and goose roamed freely, they'd destroy my crops—potatoes, wheat, soybeans, corn—before they could mature. I rely on these crops to feed the animals I raise, so the fence is necessary to protect both them and my crops. 
But I couldn't expect you to understand survival as someone who never worked a day in their life in the scorching summer preparing hay stacks or to manually weed out the crops that are necessary for the survival of the poultry and livestock. Keep living in your fairy tale bubble. 

I understand your position but beware that having a horse in this race may distort your sense making

[AION]

20 minutes ago, RightHand said:

Would a dog envy a wolf?

 

Those are human attributes that animals don't have.

Animals don't have advanced ego emotions like envy.

We humans project these attributes on them.

In one of my trips I became an animal. It is a very different experience.

[Davino]

11 minutes ago, RightHand said:

I would say that a dog and a wolf are two different animals, a dog doesn't give a fuck about being dog, it is just a dog 

I guess the counter argument is that a dog is happy being a dog because it isn't aware that it is a domesticated wolf. But, now I feel like I'm creating an ungrounded cosmology.

Let's do the comparison with cats, that can both survive by themselves or domesticated. Which cat is more fulfilled? Which cat is more free? Which cat is more conscious?

Idk, interesting to contemplate

[Davino]

1 minute ago, AION said:

Those are human attributes that animals don't have.

Animals don't have advanced ego emotions like envy.

We humans project these attributes on them.

It was a thought experiment as far as how I interpreted it

[Daniel Balan]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Survival is indeed a nasty business. Now you can appreciate why slavery was invented.

No. I strongly refuse your reasoning. The animals I raise are NOT my slaves. Without me they would die instantly. Here in the country side there are a ton of predators and I have traps around the barn where I keep my animals, I have to give them fresh water multiple times a day and work all year to produce their food, I don't buy the food for the poultry, only for my dogs and cat. I take care of them with deep love and compassion. I could very well buy all the food I need for myself from a bigger town nearby from the supermarket. But because I lived all my life in the countryside I have deep appreciation for raising livestock and poultry because I was raised by my grandparents since I was 1 year old, and they've taught me everything about working the fields and raising livestock and poultry. To me taking care of my animals gives me happiness that brings tears in my eyes. I've never mistreated my animals once in my life. A slave owner beats and tortures, I've done the extreme oposite.

[RendHeaven]

5 minutes ago, Daniel Balan said:

No. I strongly refuse your reasoning. The animals I raise are NOT my slaves.

You're very emotionally charged about this, and it's clear that you're not even capable of temporarily occupying the counter-position to play devil's advocate against yourself.

My family has two sweet dogs, and I'm happily aware that this is slavery. No emotional turmoil for me, because the truth is the truth.

Maybe rewatch Leo's most recent video. Defensiveness is a red flag of low perspective.

Edited January 18 by RendHeaven
grammar mistake

[Daniel Balan]

10 minutes ago, Davino said:

I understand your position but beware that having a horse in this race may distort your sense making

The alternative is to do what? Kill myself so that I no longer inflict slavery towards other beings? Someone said sometime ago that Actualized.org teachings are suicidal. And I couldn't agree more. All this talk you guys do creates suicide as the only alternative to end all this devilry and slavery and suffering! Honestly, suicide is the only alternative if I'd follow your reasoning and bias. I die and I no longer kill a chicken to feed myself, I die so that I no longer provoke suffering towards other beings and so on. I'd suggest Leo, and everyone else on this forum to check yourselves before you speak. Raising animals ain't no slavery. The alternative is to starve to death. You have no clue of that because all you do is go to the supermarket when hungry. 

[Daniel Balan]

Just now, RendHeaven said:

You're very emotionally charged about this, and it's clear that you're not even capable of temporarily occupying the counter-position to play devil's advocate against yourself.

My family has two sweet dogs, and I'm happy aware that this is slavery. No emotional turmoil for me, because the truth is the truth.

Maybe rewatch Leo's most recent video. Defensiveness is a red flag of low perspective.

How could your family having 2 dogs being slavery? You realize that if your family unleashed the dogs and stopped taking care of them they'd die? Dogs need water and food, unless you provide it to them they'd die. 

[Leo Gura]

@Daniel Balan Why do you think slaves exist?

For fun?

To feed their master's needs.

Yes, truth is suicidal to those whose survival depends on fantasies.

But take it easy. I'm not telling you to stop eating your chickens. Eat all the chickens you want.

[Davino]

9 minutes ago, Daniel Balan said:

The alternative is to do what? Kill myself so that I no longer inflict slavery towards other beings?

Never said that. You are in a position in life that demands certain responsabilities from you which given the context you find yourself in are probably the best.

I was talking about the art of pure contemplation, which demands being totally unbiased. I have five cats and a bird, which I love immensely. Yet I am totally able to take a step back and contemplate with total seriousness the fact that I could be absolutely wrong in having pets and follow the truth to whatever it may take me. If I arrived to the revelation that it is not the way to be I'd follow the best plan to make a comfortable life for the rest of my animals and not have any more. Or on the other hand, realize that the truth is that my animals are satisfied with the life they live and they bring me joy, to which I would continue to walk this way.

This is the basis for contemplation.

Edited January 18 by Davino

[RendHeaven]

7 minutes ago, Daniel Balan said:

To me taking care of my animals gives me happiness that brings tears in my eyes.

That's awesome

7 minutes ago, Daniel Balan said:

I've never mistreated my animals once in my life.

Mistreatment has nothing to do with the definition of slavery.

Your arguments are frighteningly similar to those "well-intended" white plantation owners who took pride in how compassionately they treated their black slaves. "But we never beat them! and they get so many perks for being on my plantation!" Yeah, well, the bottom line is you're still dictating the life of another sentient being. Golden handcuffs are still handcuffs.

10 minutes ago, Daniel Balan said:

A slave owner beats and tortures

This is a self-serving strawman of slavery.

Slavery is fundamentally about limiting the sovereignty of another being for personal gain.

Even the most benevolent pet owner, by definition, is limiting the sovereignty of another being for personal gain. Personal gain in this case is a very subtle thing. You're not exploiting animals in any obvious ways. But something as simple as "they bring happiness to my life" is an emotional leeching mechanism, a transaction of sorts. The animal is encaged on your premises without the ability to dictate its own life. In turn you feel happy. And you get to project that the animal is also happy. Which gives you double, triple the happiness because now you have a story about what a good person you are (which is an indirect benefit you get from restricting their sovereignty).

None of this makes you evil or bad. This is just a technical account of what pet ownership actually entails. It is what it is.

8 minutes ago, Daniel Balan said:

The alternative is to do what? Kill myself so that I no longer inflict slavery towards other beings?

No, the alternative is to be self-honest and to love/accept yourself for partaking in slavery, instead of flailing in denial.

6 minutes ago, Daniel Balan said:

You realize that if your family unleashed the dogs and stopped taking care of them they'd die? Dogs need water and food, unless you provide it to them they'd die. 

Yes, but at least they would be self-determined and free.

Your argument amounts to: Enslaving them helps them!

And to that - yes. I agree!

Just call it what it is. But don't get emotionally wrapped up in it. Slavery does not automatically = bad. That would be social programming.

Remember how Leo says that everything is Love? This discussion might show a crack of light into how even slavery could be Love.

[RendHeaven]

Just now, RightHand said:

enslaved by its caregivers for years.

It's tricky.

parents placing boundaries on kids is a sort of half-slavery in the sense that yes, the sovereignty of the child is being restricted - however this is primarily done for the child's own benefit, and most importantly those boundaries are temporary until the child is able to find the strength to make its own decisions.

But it would behoove parents to be very self-honest, and admit that everything they do for their child, no matter how selfless, is still "personal gain" in the sense that the survival of your child is the survival of your self. So in a twisted way, you can't escape your own selfishness.

[RendHeaven]

Just now, RightHand said:

It feels like my problem is with the word "slavery". As soon as I replace it with "restricting freedom" the statements become more grounded.

"slavery" is a specific subset of "restricting freedom"

"restricting freedom" becomes "slavery" when the person doing the restriction receives PERSONAL GAIN from the dynamic. The personal gain component is very important.

not all slavery is the same. There is extreme slavery which is purely exploitative and brutal. This is what most people think of when they hear "slavery." This is the kind of slavery that makes your gut curl up and your blood boil. This is the kind of slavery that you would never associate yourself with.

a more softcore variant of slavery entail subtle value extraction and subtle freedom restriction. At a surface glance it will not look like slavery at all. It may even look charitable or kind.

Try to see "slavery" as an abstract principle. There are degrees of slavery in almost all relationships due to survival demands.

"but it feels wrong to conflate ACTUAL brutal evil slavery with softcore exploitation!"

Well, notice how your mind wants to draw a mental barrier between "evil" slavery and everything else. And then you want to personally identify with the good guys and "other" the bad guys.

Such thinking will not lead to holistic understanding of the human condition or of Consciousness.

There is a really profound and special "unity of fragmentation" that happens in your heart when you finally embrace that YOU are a slave owner and a slave at the same time. Both literally and abstractly.

[Schizophonia]

53 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

That's awesome

Mistreatment has nothing to do with the definition of slavery.

Your arguments are frighteningly similar to those "well-intended" white plantation owners who took pride in how compassionately they treated their black slaves. "But we never beat them! and they get so many perks for being on my plantation!" Yeah, well, the bottom line is you're still dictating the life of another sentient being. Golden handcuffs are still handcuffs.

might show a crack of light into how even slavery could be Love.

Having slaves is rational.
You may want to avoid being too mean to them either because you're not a sociopath, or because you want to avoid them rebelling and killing you.

 

[Terell Kirby]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, truth is suicidal to those whose survival depends on fantasies.

That’s deep. In this case, valuing survival & fantasy over truth shouldn’t be judged as a moral failing of some sort.

In a sense, Jail breaking the mind is a good thing only to those who desire it. Truth would indeed look like suicide from a POV that has no desire for it.

Desire/bias very much drives our values, how we act on those values and how we judge our actions (actions of others).

Edited January 18 by Terell Kirby

[Rigel]

4 hours ago, Daniel Balan said:

The alternative is to do what? Kill myself so that I no longer inflict slavery towards other beings? Someone said sometime ago that Actualized.org teachings are suicidal. And I couldn't agree more. All this talk you guys do creates suicide as the only alternative to end all this devilry and slavery and suffering! Honestly, suicide is the only alternative if I'd follow your reasoning and bias. I die and I no longer kill a chicken to feed myself, I die so that I no longer provoke suffering towards other beings and so on. I'd suggest Leo, and everyone else on this forum to check yourselves before you speak. Raising animals ain't no slavery. The alternative is to starve to death. You have no clue of that because all you do is go to the supermarket when hungry. 

Notice that you are the one bringing this suicide talk to actualized.org right now. Not the other way around. You are inventing this black & white moral interpretation that either the devilry, slavery & suffering ends or you kills yourself. Why?

[Daniel Balan]

2 hours ago, Rigel said:

Notice that you are the one bringing this suicide talk to actualized.org right now. Not the other way around. You are inventing this black & white moral interpretation that either the devilry, slavery & suffering ends or you kills yourself. Why?

I bring that up? When someone tells you for 5 years now as I earlier recall, that you enslave others, you are the sole reason why there is suffering on earth, you create junk and pollute the planet, that you are the devil and so on. Now tell me, what other solution can those teachings lead to? Leo never encouraged anybody to do self harm or suicide, on the contrary, he always told us to not do that. But his teachings have always left me with an after taste in my mouth of killing myself. He made me realize that I am indeed the devil and I thank him for that, but you have to draw the line somewhere! To me he crossed the line when he said that having a pet is slavery for the pet. With that statement, he made me feel like I should stop breathing also! Because I am also enslaving the oxygen to make my body function... I honestly love him for everything he thought us but sometimes he is downright making me jump off a cliff. STOP THAT. At least if he was right, but in that case he is dead wrong. 

[Daniel Balan]

I had a dog that wherever I went he followed me, once I rode my bike for like 15 km away of my household and he was glued behind my bicycle for the whole trip, I wanted to enjoy nature! I didn't tell him to follow me, he did that always on his own volition.(Photo below ( at the place I wanted to reach for that trip)). I've never chained him to stay with me. He could very well choose to leave my household, but he never did! I took immense care of him until the day he died. Also I attach a photo with my cat! She could easily jump the fence and go wherever she wanted. And she did that all the time! But she never left my household for more than a day! If I am the enslaver.. why didn't those beings run the hell away from me?

Guys I tell you! You are deluded and think you know everything about reality just because you took few shrooms or LSD or other psychedelics. Go live in the real world enjoy mother nature sober! That is the only psychedelic you need. With your contemplation and false assumptions you only cause confusion.
 

[WonderSeeker]

I don't but plan to in 10 years (I'm 26).