Gaza Death Toll debunked

[Raze]

13 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Yes a very "good" treatment - shooting rockets, exploding buses, kidnaping babies and decapitating people. (Did I miss anything?) Also the "good" way in which they treat women and gay people. Do you know that they murder women freely for "respect" of the family.

That was after decades of violent mistreatment. Prior to that Palestinians lived peacefully with the Jewish population.

Edited 7 hours ago by Raze

[Raze]

On 12/24/2024 at 2:46 PM, Nivsch said:

But in some other aspects IDF is more careful than perhaps any other military in the world in its civilians warning strategies especially in previous operations in Gaza before the brakes lost in oct7.

But even during the last war the killed ratio are objectively far better (1.5:1-2:1 vs 7:1) than Europe and US coalition against ISIS or Iraq and Afganistan war. Of course nothing is "good" or justified but the contrast is still important.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio

No they didn’t 

In Afghanistan it was 1 civilian per 2.5 combatant killed

In Iraq it was 1 civilian per 2 combatants killed 

and many of the civilians were killed by Taliban or Iraqi insurgents

In Gaza 2008 and 2014 it was 2 civilians per 1 combatant  (according to Btselem and the UN HRC), almost all civilians were killed by IDF

Edited 4 hours ago by Raze

[Nivsch]

@Raze Ok it is my mistake here. I have read it in the past but probably it wasn't an organized source but an opinion. I was sure this is the case. Maybe because of the absolute civilian casualties that was higher in those wars in comparison to Gaza but the ratios were indeed similar in all those wars, so Israel wasn't better in that sense.

Edited 3 hours ago by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

Wait a minute. Chat GPT now says similar thing to what I said yesterday.

Edit: the Chat answers change a bit each time I ask him, so take it carefully.

Is wikipedia the most reliable source?

The "Optimistic" Chat's version:

1. Gaza War 2023-2024:

During the ongoing Gaza conflict (Operation "Shield and Arrow" and subsequent fighting), estimates indicate around 20,000–25,000 Palestinian casualties, with 7,000–9,000 being militants (Hamas and other terrorist groups).

Civilian to militant casualty ratio is estimated at 2:1 to 3:1 (for every militant killed, 2–3 civilians die).

2. Iraq War 2003-2011:

In the Iraq War (2003-2011), over 100,000 Iraqis were killed, with 60% of them being civilians. Militants included fighters from Saddam Hussein’s regime, Al-Qaeda, and insurgents.

Civilian to militant ratio was between 3:1 to 5:1, meaning for every militant killed, 3–5 civilians died.

3. Afghanistan War 2001-2021:

In Afghanistan, more than 47,000 civilians were killed, with the total death toll around 60,000–70,000. The remaining casualties were mostly Taliban militants and foreign troops.

Civilian to militant ratio was between 5:1 to 7:1.

Summary:

Gaza War 2023-2024: Civilian to militant ratio of 2:1 to 3:1.

Iraq and Afghanistan Wars: Civilian to militant ratio was higher, ranging from 3:1 to 7:1.

In the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, civilians were disproportionately affected due to urban warfare, airstrikes, and prolonged conflict.

Edited 3 hours ago by Nivsch

[Raze]

if we just look at the initial invasion of Afghanistan in 2001, according to this book page 17-18

https://books.google.com/books?id=CB6sDwAAQBAJ

8-12,000 combatants were killed

and according to page 26 here

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/files/cow/imce/papers/2011/Civilian Death and Injury in Afghanistan%2C 2001-2011.pdf

1,500 - 2,300 civilians were killed

If we look at the entire war, according to this analysis from Brown University

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/figures/2021/human-and-budgetary-costs-date-us-war-afghanistan-2001-2022

in Afghanistan 46,000 civilians were killed and 52,000 opposition fighters over the whole war.

 

If we look at the initial invasion of Iraq in 2003 

according to this source

http://www.comw.org/pda/0310rm8.html

they had 4-6,000 combatant deaths

alternatively according to this article

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/may/28/usa.iraq

13-45,000 combatant deaths 

and according to this tracker

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

7,269 civilians killed

If we look at the entire war to this same tracker 187-210,000 Iraqi civilians were killed

and adding the insurgents killed 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War#cite_note-78

30-70,000 combatants were killed

 

In Israel’s 2008 Gaza war, according to Btselem

http://www.btselem.org/statistics/fatalities/during-cast-lead/by-date-of-event

759 civilians were killed and 350 militants 

 

in the 2014 Gaza war, according to UN Human rights committee

http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/HRBodies/HRCouncil/CoIGaza/A_HRC_CRP_4.doc

1,462 civilians and 789 combatants were killed

 

These comparisons also don’t take into account many Afghanistan civilians were killed by taliban, and many Iraqis killed during the civil war or by ISIS, and the wars lasted decades.

Iraq and Afghanistan also have populations of 40-45 million, Gaza is only 2 million
 

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

During the ongoing Gaza conflict (Operation "Shield and Arrow" and subsequent fighting), estimates indicate around 20,000–25,000 Palestinian casualties, with 7,000–9,000 being militants (Hamas and other terrorist groups).

Civilian to militant casualty ratio is estimated at 2:1 to 3:1 (for every militant killed, 2–3 civilians die).

The current death toll is 45,000 at least according to the Gaza health ministry 

Israeli media has also reported they are counting civilians as military casualties 

Example:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-03-31/ty-article-magazine/.premium/israel-created-kill-zones-in-gaza-anyone-who-crosses-into-them-is-shot/0000018e-946c-d4de-afee-f46da9ee0000

Edited 2 hours ago by Raze

[gambler]

@Nivsch There's a lot of errors in your chatgpt prompt.

In Iraq for example, a lot of civilian deaths were from the anarchy, trauma, and sectarian hysteria that ensued. Suicide bombings alone account for 20-40% of civilian deaths, according to the same AI you used.

That's not even taking into account roadside bombs. For afghanistan you have to account for these things too, and according to the same AI you used, roadside and suicide bombing accounts for 50-60% of civilian deaths.

It also didn't account for the indirect deaths from sanctions, decreased infrastructure and resources for basic needs, care, increased poverty, and all these other sorts of things. Which raises the death toll and accounts for a lot of preventable deaths. Which is another thing that can be compared, and one where the U.S. did terribly in.

Edited 2 hours ago by gambler