Gaza Death Toll debunked

[Raze]

20 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

@Raze

IDF left Gaza and painfully expelled Gush Katif, which resulted in Hamas gaining authority and making the lives of Palestinians miserable. They got so much money from Qatar, but it all went to rockets to shoot at civilians. The people of Gaza are killed and tortured by Hamas.

Is that actually what tou want to happen in Yehudia Samaria? (It's a fact that 80% support Hamas and they will be elected) Half a million of Israelis live here peacefully along side the Palestinians.

When Hamas won the election they offered a long term ceasefire in exchange for lifting the blockade

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/nov/01/israel

Instead Israel tried to violently overthrow them and when it failed made the blockade even harsher to crush the economy.

Independent analysis from groups like the world bank and UNCTAD consistently find what makes Gazans miserable is the crushing blockade.

In the West Bank they face constant demolitions and violence, over 800 have been killed by IDF or settlers since Oct 7

https://www.ochaopt.org/data/demolition

They have no means to defend themselves legally because they don’t have rights, and they can’t defend themselves through armed resistance because Israel will do what they do in Gaza.

the Israeli government doesn’t have a right to control the lives of people who have no influence on its actions, and continue to take their land and expel them from it. You can’t justify it by saying that if they get freedom they might attack, by that logic no oppressed groups would ever be given freedom. And currently people are being attacked, the Palestinians by the israelis.

examples like these occur constantly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7Js0caPhMY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SASvtv4q9js

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-girl-killed-west-bank-was-looking-out-window-her-father-says-2024-09-04/

If Israel tries to overthrow their government and completely crush their economy like they did in Gaza, they definitely will attack.

But if they were actually given equal rights or at least a state so they could have self determination, most of the reason to fight would be gone.

Edited December 27, 2024 by Raze

[Anton Rogachevski]

@Raze Until 7.10 the blockade was gradually being lifted giving more permits and fishing areas. As we can see it didn't help.

The hateful genocidal attack was a religious one, that's why it's called the El Aksa flood. 

You can't negotiate with terrorists, their whole existence depends on you being an enemy, and if there's no enemy there's no purpose for them to exist.

[Raze]

5 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

@Raze Until 7.10 the blockade was gradually being lifted giving more permits and fishing areas. As we can see it didn't help.

The hateful genocidal attack was a religious one, that's why it's called the El Aksa flood. 

You can't negotiate with terrorists, their whole existence depends on you being an enemy, and if there's no enemy there's no purpose for them to exist.

It didn’t help because it barely made a dent. Gaza was still on the verge of being unlivable, and as I said earlier violence in the West Bank was escalating. At the same time israel was trying to normalize with Saudi Arabia and the Muslim world without resolving the Palestine issue, meaning the Palestinians could be trapped with even less political support to negotiate freedom. So Hamas attacked to interrupt it, and to get hostages to negotiate the release of thousands of Palestinian prisoners.

Hamas is an Islamist Group, but they said the motivations for the attack and it’s not religious. You don’t have to be religious to resist horrific conditions, the PLO was a secular nationalist movement and resisted for decades.

And your final point is more correct then you know, when the need for violent resistance is gone so usually goes the resistance, when apartheid ended in South Africa the militant group resistant it dissolved and became a political party.

[Anton Rogachevski]

Just now, Raze said:

Gaza was still on the verge of being unlivable

Bc hamas was stealing all the money and buying rockets. 

[Anton Rogachevski]

7 minutes ago, Raze said:

At the same time israel was trying to normalize with Saudi Arabia and the Muslim world

That's one of the reasons for 7.10

They hated that all the world saw that Israel is normal and good, and not evil like they want to imagine.

Let's not forget that the "blockade" is also from the egyptian side.

Edited December 27, 2024 by Anton Rogachevski

[Raze]

9 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Bc hamas was stealing all the money and buying rockets. 

No they weren’t. The aid is tracked and there are plenty of detailed reports showing where it is going.

What Hamas takes is a small drop in the bucket of the damage the blockade does. Leaked emails from Israeli officials admit the blockade is designed to keep the economy on the brink of collapse.

8 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

That's one of the reasons for 7.10

They hated that all the world saw that Israel is normal and good, and not evil like they want to imagine.

Being normal and good would mean accepting the norms set by the rest of the world and what is considered the legal and moral choice by international courts, and the entire rest of the world and major international courts have been saying israel needs to give Palestinians self determination and end the blockade and stop expanding settlements.

Edited December 27, 2024 by Raze

[Anton Rogachevski]

@Raze Maybe that would have happened if not for 7.10, which was detrimental for their agenda.
 

https://apnews.com/article/business-middle-east-israel-foreign-aid-gaza-strip-611b2b90c3a211f21185d59f4fae6a90

Hamas likes all the aid because it means they can save their money for rockets and instead of spending it on infrastructure.

The blockade purpose is to prevent militarization, which wouldn't be a problem if the IDF stayed there.

Edited December 27, 2024 by Anton Rogachevski

[Raze]

Just now, Anton Rogachevski said:

@Raze Maybe that would have happened if not for 7.10, which was detrimental for their agenda.

The PA hasn’t staged an attack on Israelis in a decade and has been collaborating with Israel for years. Yet they continued to expand settlements. 

[Anton Rogachevski]

6 hours ago, Raze said:

The PA hasn’t staged an attack on Israelis in a decade and has been collaborating with Israel for years. Yet they continued to expand settlements. 

Expanding along side PA expansion. I'm no expert in the legal sphere, but those lands are under dispute from what I know (C Areas) which means that they don't belong to either side legally.

[Raze]

3 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Expanding along side PA expansion. I'm no expert in the legal sphere, but those lands are under dispute from what I know (C Areas) which means that they don't belong to either side legally.

Every Israeli settlement in the West Bank is illegal under international law 

[Anton Rogachevski]

@Raze UN is notoriously biased against us and is considered by many to be antisemitic. 

Until 67 it was in the hands of Jordan. Why didn't they make it a palestinian state? In order for the occupation to be legal they have to offer them self determination.

Edited December 28, 2024 by Anton Rogachevski

[Raze]

14 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

@Raze UN is notoriously biased against us and is considered by many to be antisemitic. 

Until 67 it was in the hands of Jordan. Why didn't they make it a palestinian state? 

It isn’t just the UN, it’s every international body of relevance. Expelling locals to build settlements on occupied land was classified as a war crime under the Geneva conventions.

Even the Supreme Court of Israel has ruled it

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/legal-expert-if-israel-isn-t-occupying-west-bank-it-must-give-up-land-held-by-idf-1.449909

Jordan wanted the West Bank to be part of Jordan and gave the Palestinians Jordanian citizenship. 

Edited December 27, 2024 by Raze

[Anton Rogachevski]

8 minutes ago, Raze said:

It isn’t just the UN, every international body of relevance. Expelling locals to build settlements on occupied land was classified as a war crime.

Jordan wanted the West Bank to be part of Jordan and gave the Palestinians Jordanian citizenship. 

But it's not Jordan, but considered part of the palestinian state. You see what's the trouble? There was no claim to the land, and therefore it's legal status is under dispute.

In order for the occupation to be illegal the occupier has to refuse peace offers but we signed the Oslo Accords and PLO too, which means they agreed to our presence. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords

Edited December 27, 2024 by Anton Rogachevski

[Raze]

4 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

But it's not Jordan, but considered part of the palestinian state. You see what's the trouble? There was no claim to the land, and therefore it's legal status is under dispute.

It isn’t in dispute, it is occupied. 

[Anton Rogachevski]

Just now, Raze said:

It isn’t in dispute, it is occupied. 

Yes and it was occupied by Jordan too, but you don't seem to have trouble with that. You just don't like us, and considering all the antisemitism in the world, I'm not even surprised. 

[Raze]

10 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Yes and it was occupied by Jordan too, but you don't seem to have trouble with that. You just don't like us, and considering all the antisemitism in the world, I'm not even surprised. 

Because that stopped before I was born.

If Israel wasn’t demolishing Palestinian homes and gave them citizenship like Jordan then we can talk.

In the mean time the occupation and settlements is torturing millions of Palestinians and puts Israelis at risk for when they try to defend themselves. 

[Anton Rogachevski]

13 minutes ago, Raze said:

demolishing Palestinian homes

Illegal building from both sides are demolished. 

[Raze]

7 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Illegal building from both sides are demolished. 

All settlements from Israel are illegal.

Israel doesn’t allow Palestinians to build the vast majority of the time, when they do it outside the law to have somewhere to live it gets demolished. 

[Anton Rogachevski]

When an ex-hamas man debates for Israel better than Israel. Counter his points, if you are such pro debaters.

The saddest part of it all is that the hope for peace between Israel and Palestine diminished greatly because of 7.10 and the aftermath, but if you only hope for peace when it's easy, you are not really for peace. I guess peace can be very challenging sometimes. It came to the unfortunate point where if you say peace, you are immediately judged for being too left wing. Sad very sad. But I didn't lose hope, and I hope you didn't either.

Edited December 28, 2024 by Anton Rogachevski

[Twentyfirst]

On 12/23/2024 at 3:42 AM, Nivsch said:

This does not change the fact that the majority of Israelis do not hold this ideology, nor believe in it, nor desire to have land in Gaza or the West Bank.

"I don't want to hurt you" - Me, as I am stabbing you