Gaza Death Toll debunked

[Raze]

13 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Yes a very "good" treatment - shooting rockets, exploding buses, kidnaping babies and decapitating people. (Did I miss anything?) Also the "good" way in which they treat women and gay people. Do you know that they murder women freely for "respect" of the family.

That was after decades of violent mistreatment. Prior to that Palestinians lived peacefully with the Jewish population.

Edited Wednesday at 05:46 PM by Raze

[Raze]

On 12/24/2024 at 2:46 PM, Nivsch said:

But in some other aspects IDF is more careful than perhaps any other military in the world in its civilians warning strategies especially in previous operations in Gaza before the brakes lost in oct7.

But even during the last war the killed ratio are objectively far better (1.5:1-2:1 vs 7:1) than Europe and US coalition against ISIS or Iraq and Afganistan war. Of course nothing is "good" or justified but the contrast is still important.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio

No they didn’t 

In Afghanistan it was 1 civilian per 2.5 combatant killed

In Iraq it was 1 civilian per 2 combatants killed 

and many of the civilians were killed by Taliban or Iraqi insurgents

In Gaza 2008 and 2014 it was 2 civilians per 1 combatant  (according to Btselem and the UN HRC), almost all civilians were killed by IDF

Edited Wednesday at 09:11 PM by Raze

[Nivsch]

@Raze Ok it is my mistake here. I have read it in the past but probably it wasn't an organized source but an opinion. I was sure this is the case. Maybe because of the absolute civilian casualties that was higher in those wars in comparison to Gaza but the ratios were indeed similar in all those wars, so Israel wasn't better in that sense.

Edited Wednesday at 09:41 PM by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

Wait a minute. Chat GPT now says similar thing to what I said yesterday.

Edit: the Chat answers change a bit each time I ask him, so take it carefully.

Is wikipedia the most reliable source?

The "Optimistic" Chat's version:

1. Gaza War 2023-2024:

During the ongoing Gaza conflict (Operation "Shield and Arrow" and subsequent fighting), estimates indicate around 20,000–25,000 Palestinian casualties, with 7,000–9,000 being militants (Hamas and other terrorist groups).

Civilian to militant casualty ratio is estimated at 2:1 to 3:1 (for every militant killed, 2–3 civilians die).

2. Iraq War 2003-2011:

In the Iraq War (2003-2011), over 100,000 Iraqis were killed, with 60% of them being civilians. Militants included fighters from Saddam Hussein’s regime, Al-Qaeda, and insurgents.

Civilian to militant ratio was between 3:1 to 5:1, meaning for every militant killed, 3–5 civilians died.

3. Afghanistan War 2001-2021:

In Afghanistan, more than 47,000 civilians were killed, with the total death toll around 60,000–70,000. The remaining casualties were mostly Taliban militants and foreign troops.

Civilian to militant ratio was between 5:1 to 7:1.

Summary:

Gaza War 2023-2024: Civilian to militant ratio of 2:1 to 3:1.

Iraq and Afghanistan Wars: Civilian to militant ratio was higher, ranging from 3:1 to 7:1.

In the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, civilians were disproportionately affected due to urban warfare, airstrikes, and prolonged conflict.

Edited Wednesday at 09:48 PM by Nivsch

[Raze]

if we just look at the initial invasion of Afghanistan in 2001, according to this book page 17-18

https://books.google.com/books?id=CB6sDwAAQBAJ

8-12,000 combatants were killed

and according to page 26 here

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/files/cow/imce/papers/2011/Civilian Death and Injury in Afghanistan%2C 2001-2011.pdf

1,500 - 2,300 civilians were killed

If we look at the entire war, according to this analysis from Brown University

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/figures/2021/human-and-budgetary-costs-date-us-war-afghanistan-2001-2022

in Afghanistan 46,000 civilians were killed and 52,000 opposition fighters over the whole war.

 

If we look at the initial invasion of Iraq in 2003 

according to this source

http://www.comw.org/pda/0310rm8.html

they had 4-6,000 combatant deaths

alternatively according to this article

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/may/28/usa.iraq

13-45,000 combatant deaths 

and according to this tracker

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

7,269 civilians killed

If we look at the entire war to this same tracker 187-210,000 Iraqi civilians were killed

and adding the insurgents killed 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War#cite_note-78

30-70,000 combatants were killed

 

In Israel’s 2008 Gaza war, according to Btselem

http://www.btselem.org/statistics/fatalities/during-cast-lead/by-date-of-event

759 civilians were killed and 350 militants 

 

in the 2014 Gaza war, according to UN Human rights committee

http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/HRBodies/HRCouncil/CoIGaza/A_HRC_CRP_4.doc

1,462 civilians and 789 combatants were killed

 

These comparisons also don’t take into account many Afghanistan civilians were killed by taliban, and many Iraqis killed during the civil war or by ISIS, and the wars lasted decades.

Iraq and Afghanistan also have populations of 40-45 million, Gaza is only 2 million
 

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

During the ongoing Gaza conflict (Operation "Shield and Arrow" and subsequent fighting), estimates indicate around 20,000–25,000 Palestinian casualties, with 7,000–9,000 being militants (Hamas and other terrorist groups).

Civilian to militant casualty ratio is estimated at 2:1 to 3:1 (for every militant killed, 2–3 civilians die).

The current death toll is 45,000 at least according to the Gaza health ministry 

Israeli media has also reported they are counting civilians as military casualties 

Example:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-03-31/ty-article-magazine/.premium/israel-created-kill-zones-in-gaza-anyone-who-crosses-into-them-is-shot/0000018e-946c-d4de-afee-f46da9ee0000

Edited Wednesday at 11:07 PM by Raze

[gambler]

@Nivsch There's a lot of errors in your chatgpt prompt.

In Iraq for example, a lot of civilian deaths were from the anarchy, trauma, and sectarian hysteria that ensued. Suicide bombings alone account for 20-40% of civilian deaths, according to the same AI you used.

That's not even taking into account roadside bombs. For afghanistan you have to account for these things too, and according to the same AI you used, roadside and suicide bombing accounts for 50-60% of civilian deaths.

It also didn't account for the indirect deaths from sanctions, decreased infrastructure and resources for basic needs, care, increased poverty, and all these other sorts of things. Which raises the death toll and accounts for a lot of preventable deaths. Which is another thing that can be compared, and one where the U.S. did terribly in.

Edited Wednesday at 11:19 PM by gambler

[Anton Rogachevski]

This debate is newb level, just listen to some pro level Destiny debates. He's a liberal but somehow he sees that Israel is not entirely wrong here. 

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Pa_kjk5zeE8&t=9499s&pp=ygUORGVzdGlueSBpc3JhZWw%3D

Edited 20 hours ago by Anton Rogachevski

[Nivsch]

3 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

This debate is newb level, just listen to some pro level Destiny debates. He's a liberal but somehow he sees that Israel is not entirely wrong here. 

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Pa_kjk5zeE8&t=9499s&pp=ygUORGVzdGlueSBpc3JhZWw%3D

What section? Can you focus me to the rellevant part? This video is 3 hours long.

[Anton Rogachevski]

4 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

What section? Can you focus me to the rellevant part? This video is 3 hours long.

Can't think of one part more relevant than another here.

[Nivsch]

49 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Can't think of one part more relevant than another here.

Things I can only listen to when 🚘🌲

Edited 16 hours ago by Nivsch

[Anton Rogachevski]

22 hours ago, Raze said:

That was after decades of violent mistreatment. Prior to that Palestinians lived peacefully with the Jewish population.

 

They never wanted us and opposed violently from day one, they refused all deals which involved any part of land given to us. It's a part of Hamas' amendment to erase us from existence. 67' deal was viable in 67', but no deal is ever viable forever. Of course they regret it! Because every time they refuse the next deal gets worse and worse. I'm sorry but I think it's stubbornness, xenophobia and plain stupidity on their part.

Israel is full of left wing activists and peace organisation working to solve this. Gay Palestinians get asylum in Israel. When palestinians get a work permit they feel safe to walk in any part of Israel, but an Israeli can't even enter a palestinian village without fear. (There are many cases where Israelis were killed that way) 

There's no value for human life for them. Sinnuar said to his dentist in prison in one meeting that he would be ok with tens of thousands of palestinians die for his cause. That's exactly what happened - That was the plan!

You ignored my question: why doesn't hamas surrender? So much pain and suffering could have been avoided so simply.

The meta problem with your arguments is that you don't offer solutions, but only condemn us. But what the fuck can we do now? What would you do if you were the Israeli government? 

Extreme shia Islam, extreme homophobia, violent segregation of women and the glorification of death are baked into their culture:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/DmyAgMNmQ3RkgbuC7

Edited 10 hours ago by Anton Rogachevski

[El Rizzidente]

On 2024-12-21 at 11:57 PM, Leo Gura said:

We all see the blatant ethnic cleansing. No excuses.

@Leo Gura I don't see evidence of ethnic cleansing. Are the IDF's campaigns are scrupulous as they can be? Probably not. 

And the environment that israel is battling  hamas in (i.e. one of a supremely high population density) makes it almost unavoidable for there to be anything but a high death toll that outrages most ppl

my mind is amenable to be changed, but compared to sudan or even china (with the uyghurs), it's child's play

[Raze]

1 hour ago, El Rizzidente said:

@Leo Gura I don't see evidence of ethnic cleansing. Are the IDF's campaigns are scrupulous as they can be? Probably not. 

And the environment that israel is battling  hamas in (i.e. one of a supremely high population density) makes it almost unavoidable for there to be anything but a high death toll that outrages most ppl

my mind is amenable to be changed, but compared to sudan or even china (with the uyghurs), it's child's play

https://www.972mag.com/moshe-yaalon-ethnic-cleansing-gaza/

[Raze]

5 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

They never wanted us and opposed violently from day one, they refused all deals which involved any part of land given to us. It's a part of Hamas' amendment to erase us from existence. 67' deal was viable in 67', but no deal is ever viable forever. Of course they regret it! Because every time they refuse the next deal gets worse and worse. I'm sorry but I think it's stubbornness, xenophobia and plain stupidity on their part.

Palestinians lived peacefully with Christian’s and Jews for centuries. What they didn’t want were people coming to take over their land.

There are letters from the 1900’s from Zionists concerned that they were already seeing abuse of the natives. In 1919-20, armed Zionist militias drilling in plain sight, and parading through the streets of Palestinian cities chanting and holding banners announcing that all of Palestine would be theirs.

The first major incident of violence was a riot of Arabs after they saw armed zionists marching. 
 

The first partition was after Zionists had expelled tens of thousands and killed thousands and were demanding the majority of the land with most of the important resources go to Jews, who were the minority. Obviously they wouldn’t accept that.

They regret it because israel responds with mass murder and shoved their population into impoverished ghettos. If Germans told Jews to leave the country and they said no, so they then shoved Jews into ghettos, that isn’t the Jews fault for not accepting the deal even if their situation got worse, they have a right to their home. 
 

Before Hamas, the main enemy was the PLO, a secular movement that wanted a federation of equal rights for Jews and Palestinians. It is Israelis who would rather violently occupy millions of people rather than have to many non-Jews in their country. They literally expelled entire villages to maintain demographic majority, how is that not xenophobia? 
 

5 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

There's no value for human life for them. Sinnuar said to his dentist in prison in one meeting that he would be ok with tens of thousands of palestinians die for his cause. That's exactly what happened - That was the plan!

Palestinians originally were one of the most secular groups in the Middle East and didn’t even have an army.

They didn’t even use terrorism either, the first incidents of terroristic attacks were by Zionist’s with things like king David hotel. 

Now it changed, because Zionists have inflicted so much constant violence on them the culture shifted.

That’s like saying the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto uprising didn’t value their lives. Their lives were already destroyed.

5 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Israel is full of left wing activists and peace organisation working to solve this. Gay Palestinians get asylum in Israel. When palestinians get a work permit they feel safe to walk in any part of Israel, but an Israeli can't even enter a palestinian village without fear. (There are many cases where Israelis were killed that way) 

The pro peace left in Israel is a small ineffectual minority. The majority of Israelis have racist views about arabs, believe they deserve special privileges based on their race, and support massive war crimes against Palestinians. These are all shown in polling.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-shows-large-swaths-of-israeli-youth-hate-arabs-back-revoking-citizenship/

https://archive.ph/LpDIZ

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/05/30/israeli-views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/

 

5 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

You ignored my question: why doesn't hamas surrender? So much pain and suffering could have been avoided so simply.

The situation prior to October 7:

In Gaza, israel had maintained a blockade for decades, leaked emails show that they specifically did so to keep the economy on the brink of collapse.

After killing hundreds to thousands in the 2008 and 2014 wars, and mass shooting on peaceful protestors in 2018 injuring thousands (one idf soldier bragged about shooting off 52 knee caps, analysis of the incident found they targeted medics, children, and the disabled). 

Gaza had one of the highest unemployment rates in the world at nearly half, most Gazans didn’t have access to clean water, the majority of Gazans showed signs of depression or PTSD. This is a population that includes 1 million children.

Meanwhile, in the West Bank, where Hamas has next to no presence and the PA controls it and collaborates with israel.

Israel’s occupation dictates the lives of Palestinians who have no right to vote or influence it, they can’t legally use the land, constantly have their homes demolished to build settlements, if they ever get charged they go to a military court with massive conviction rates and higher penalties, the punishment for throwing rocks is almost as long as the punishment Israelis get for murder in civilian courts.

Israel keeps thousands of Palestinians in prison without charges.

2021 was the deadliest year for Palestinian children since the first intifada in the West Bank, 2022 was deadlier, 2023 was even deadlier than that already prior to Oct 7. Post Oct 7 it became 10x worse. Settlers and idf have killed hundreds and arrested thousands. 

they don’t surrender to stop bloodsheld, because the bloodshed was already happening.

To add to that, prior to Oct 7 they offered a long term ceasefire in exchange for a state, and since oct 7 they’ve offered to give up the hostages multiple times in exchange for a ceasefire, prisoner swap, and withdrawal from Gaza. They also offered to lay down arms in exchange for a state.

https://apnews.com/article/hamas-khalil-alhayya-qatar-ceasefire-1967-borders-4912532b11a9cec29464eab234045438

You’re basically saying “we’re killing them, so why don’t they give up the hostages but let us continue killing them slower?” 
 

5 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Extreme shia Islam, extreme homophobia, violent segregation of women and the glorification of death are baked into their culture:

- the Palestinians are Sunni. Shias were initially ambivalent on Israel but turned on them in the 80s after the siege of beruit and sabra and shatila. Now Iran is trying to exploit the conflict to counter US hegemony. 
 

- a study of Palestinian text books found they aren’t antisemitic

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-08-10/ty-article/.premium/no-palestinian-textbooks-are-not-antisemitic/0000017f-f1ff-d223-a97f-fdff7f7f0000

- Gaza has 2 million people, 1 million are adults, yet only 30,000 Hamas members. 
Israel on the other hand is almost an entirely militaristic society where nearly everyone has served. 
 

5 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

The meta problem with your arguments is that you don't offer solutions, but only condemn us. But what the fuck can we do now? What would you do if you were the Israeli government? 

Stop mass killing in Gaza, stop blocking aid into Gaza. Stop expanding settlements in the West Bank.

Stop voting down every UN resolution calling for a peaceful settlement or ceasefire.

Agree to a hostage swap.

Ideally give Palestinians the choice to become Israeli citizens with equal rights and send your leaders to independent international courts for war crime trials.

If not that withdraw to the 67 borders and allow Palestinians to have a state on what’s left of their homeland. Nearly every country in the UN votes for this except the US and Israel.

Edited 5 hours ago by Raze

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

The pro peace left in Israel is a small ineffectual minority. The majority of Israelis have racist views about arabs, believe they deserve special privileges based on their race, and support massive war crimes against Palestinians. These are all shown in polling.

Many israelis are pretty scared of Palestinians (not of Israeli Arabs though) in that phase and I can't blame them. The mind tends to generalize. Just at the same way you yourself do with Israelis.

Edited 4 hours ago by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

51 minutes ago, Raze said:

Stop mass killing in Gaza, stop blocking aid into Gaza. Stop expanding settlements in the West Bank.

Stop voting down every UN resolution calling for a peaceful settlement or ceasefire.

What do you want from him? Say this to Likud and Otsma Yehudit (Jewish Strength) parties.

[Nivsch]

68% equate 'victory' with hostages returning.

Edited 3 hours ago by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

Only 12% of Israelis want annexation and settling in Gaza.

https://www.inss.org.il/he/publication/survey-december-2024/

[M A J I]

News and Media is mostly psychological manipulation tactics. People think 99% of the world/country are vaxxed.

I can guarantee 50% or more of population are not. in the days when these things happen if you observe the comments (real people made) online, on tweets, forums, utube, social media... its completely opposite of what the mainstream, TV, news anchors and reporters were saying, this is why they removed the dislike button from utube and banned comments on most news channels. The majority of the masses were almost completely against the stories being told. It was the biggest psyop and science experiment in human history using humans as the lab rats. This has happened over and over again.

They use media like a sort of technological black-magic to create whats not even a reality, a reality.

Edited 50 minutes ago by M A J I