Gaza Death Toll debunked

[Raze]

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Then why they keep voting for parties that DO belive in it?

Likud party which is pro expansion and sees all that land as Israel had the most votes.

It is good you do not see things like they do but I feel like most Israelis vote for parties which reflect those views.

Or am I missing something?

So 2022 election: Likud (32 seats ), Lapid (I assume he is not pro expansion? 24 seats), Smotrich the right wing fascist (14 seats and 8 more seats since the previous election), Benny Gantz (I assume anti expansion?, 12 seats), Aryeh Deri, seems like religious fanatic (11 seats).

So yeah, you can see like the pro expansion parties getting 2x more mandates than the moderates.

 

 

Apparently according to polls if there is another election the moderates will do better.

But they were in office before and didn’t remove settlements.  

[Nivsch]

8 hours ago, lina said:

Unless they speak out against it (not the hostages) then their silence is approval

If people from Italy would invade France and make them the worst trauma for decades, would you expect French people to care about Italians in the following couple of years? This is utterly unrealistic.

And not only that, but Italian extremists are consistently traumatizing French people for 30 years in terror operations if we continue the analogy. Your expectations from people are irrational.

Edited December 23, 2024 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

11 hours ago, Nivsch said:

This does not change the fact that the majority of Israelis do not hold this ideology, nor believe in it, nor desire to have land in Gaza or the West Bank.

I don't buy that.

Majority of Israelis support nationalist policies, which is why those policies have been ongoing for 70 years and anyone who questions those policies is treated as a traitor or "self-hating Jew".

Edited December 23, 2024 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't buy that.

Majority of Israelis support nationalist policies, which is why those policies have been ongoing for 70 years and anyone who questions those policies is treated as a traitor.

Things that they are connecting automatically in their brain to securing their lives like tight checkpoints around West Bank. I think this is still very different than an active support for isolated settlements and expansion of them or desire or motivation to take more land because there the minority is found.

[gambler]

20 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

If people from Italy would invade France and make them the worst trauma for decades, would you expect French people to care about Italians in the following couple of years? This is utterly unrealistic.

And not only that, but Italian extremists are consistently traumatizing French people for 30 years in terror operations if we continue the analogy. Your expectations from people are irrational.

Let’s keep it real, how traumatized are Israelis really? Let’s look at Iraq, half a million or more died from invasion of Iraq to the present moment from everything that came from that, but the overwhelming majority of Iraqis love Americans and America. Despite their trauma, they can be rational enough to empathize with the other and see the nuances of things. 

[Nivsch]

4 minutes ago, gambler said:

Let’s keep it real, how traumatized are Israelis really? Let’s look at Iraq, half a million or more died from invasion of Iraq to the present moment from everything that came from that, but the overwhelming majority of Iraqis love Americans and America. Despite their trauma, they can be rational enough to empathize with the other and see the nuances of things. 

There is no a single day when I open the radio and not hear "Oct7th" in the first 5 minutes. And I am not exaggarating. I mean literally. The conversation is almost only on that. Believe what you want though. Open Ynet or twitter and translate the pages and twitts of Israelis and you will see the same.

Edited December 23, 2024 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

@Leo Gura I will feel treatened and scared if the checkpoint which is found 5 km from my home won't be secured enough or diminished I say to you honestly. This isn't a justice issue even. In terms of justice I am for Two State solution. I live right now near the city Modiin (not WB but near the 67' border).

Edited December 23, 2024 by Nivsch

[Raze]

A more detailed debunk

https://historyspeaks.substack.com/p/a-bungled-effort

[Leo Gura]

Everyone gets hung up on this word genocide. It's such a red hering. Call it ethnic cleansing instead and it will be much more productive. Then weasels will not be able to argue around. Calling it genocide backfires because genocide implies an intent to exterminate a people by any means available.

Edited December 24, 2024 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

50 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Everyone gets hung up on this word genocide. It's such a red hering. Call it ethnic cleansing instead and it will be much more productive. Then weasels will not be able to argue around. Calling it genocide backfires because genocide implies an intent to exterminate a people by any means available.

Ethnic cleansing is much easier to justify and isn’t as serious a crime.

 

[Leo Gura]

Confucius say, Wear shoe that fits best.

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Everyone gets hung up on this word genocide. It's such a red hering. Call it ethnic cleansing instead and it will be much more productive. Then weasels will not be able to argue around. Calling it genocide backfires because genocide implies an intent to exterminate a people by any means available.

They called the Bosnian thing a genocide when the death toll was far lower and it was mostly men killed.

Here it is a lot more indiscriminate and higher death toll.

That is why we call it genocide.

 

[Leo Gura]

The problem is that genocide has serious cultural meaning aside from it's technical legal meaning and these things are always confused in the public eye. No one knows or cares about the the technical legal definitions. And this is really a public cultural issue moreso than a legal one, since none of the legal rulings will be enforced anyway. So using those legal definitions in a culture war is a mistake.

Edited December 24, 2024 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The problem is that genocide has serious cultural meaning aside from it's technical legal meaning and these things are always confused in the public eye. No one knows or cares about the the technical legal definitions. And this is really a public cultural issue moreso than a legal one, since none of the legal rulings will be enforced anyway. So using those legal definitions in a culture war is a mistake.

But wouldn’t that be an argument to call it a genocide to create maximum impact and shift perspectives 

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, Raze said:

But wouldn’t that be an argument to call it a genocide to create maximum impact and shift perspectives 

No, because if you cry wolf people don't believe it. Exaggerting things don't help sell your worldview.

Normies hear genocide, they think Hitler and gas chambers, then they don't see it and they think lefties are batshit crazy. And when Jews hear genocide they think gas chambers and they say "We aren't putting Palestinians in gas chambers. You lefties are crazy."

The aim should be to teach people how subtle and sneaky ethnic cleansing can be. Israelis themselves need to see it. They don't see it.

In the culture wars "genocide" means gas chambers and firing squads, not legal eagle mumbo-jumbo. This is what Finkelstein misses.

Edited December 24, 2024 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

More detailed debunk

https://x.com/History__Speaks/status/1871349534741467628

[Anton Rogachevski]

@Leo Gura

On 23/12/2024 at 0:36 AM, Leo Gura said:

No. I mean the entire Israeli project. This includes West Bank, Gaza, and more. Gaza will be settled and ethnically cleansed even after the war. There's not really going to be an end to this. Occupation of Gaza will continue indefinitely.

That's not the real issue. The real issue is the brainwashing which convinces Israelis that all of that lands belongs to them. That is the purpose of the brainwashing. It's an issue of narcissistic entitlement.

So your land doesn't belong to you either, and you ethnically cleansed the native americans. It just enough time passed so you can forget it and pretend you are better.

[Anton Rogachevski]

17 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Confucius say, Wear shoe that fits best.

The ego says believe the things that confirm your bias the most.

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

@Leo Gura

So your land doesn't belong to you either, and you ethnically cleansed the native americans. It just enough time passed so you can forget it and pretend you are better.

Nice gaslighting.

The difference is that we are not bombing and shooting the natives today.

[Anton Rogachevski]

@Leo Gura they don't pose a security threat anymore, because they've accepted their fate and submitted to you. Now who's gaslighting?

What do you do if your neighbors shoot at you? Ask them nicely for peace?

I used to think that Yitzhak Rabin was right that we shouldn't have settled the Yehudia Samaria, but if we didn't Hamas would take it over and then 7.10 would come from both sides.

Yes I agree it's not fair for the Palestinians that we built Israel on their land, but I don't think there was much choice. Antisemitism didn't go away just yet.

The jews of europe before 1933 were trying to let go of their national identity and blend in as you say we should, but hitler opened the records and dug up jewish origins from a couple of generations before. It's a fact that we don't have a home other than Israel. It's our home we want to be safe. And we are peaceful, but it takes two to tango. They don't play ball and hadn't from day one.

Edited December 24, 2024 by Anton Rogachevski