How to stay motivated in a world full of suffering

[UnbornTao]

On 18/12/2024 at 9:50 PM, Sugarcoat said:

Ok I see. Is that your own experience of suffering though? 

No, it is intellectual on my part, hence the use of "we" on my post above.

Edited Friday at 04:09 PM by UnbornTao

[Sugarcoat]

13 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

 

No, it is intellectual on my part, hence the use of "we". 

Ok I see. I wouldn’t so much say it’s self created but rather that the way the human self is structured and works at its core creates suffering. So in the same way one doesn’t chose to have an ego at all, it just appears in children, one doesn’t chose how it functions and it’s that which creates suffering. The responsibility is on the individual to try to change it but it’s not so much responsible for creating it I would say. 

Edited Thursday at 01:34 PM by Sugarcoat

[UnbornTao]

9 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

Ok I see. I wouldn’t so much say it’s self created but rather that the way the human self is structured and works at its core creates suffering. So in the same way one doesn’t chose to have an ego at all, it just appears in children, one doesn’t chose how it functions and it’s that which creates suffering. The responsibility is on the individual to try to change it but it’s not so much responsible for creating it I would say. 

Could be. Yet, on the other hand, you seem to be implying that the self is based on suffering, which, if true, isn’t far from asserting that ‘you’ create suffering (as we confuse us with our selves).

That’s an interesting perspective. I’d add that we might have made this decision unconsciously. It’s tricky not to position oneself in a reactive or victimizing stance about things we have more control over than we think. If it turns out that it is in fact generated by us, then what does it take to experience that as a reality?

[Sugarcoat]

20 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Could be. Yet, on the other hand, you seem to be implying that the self is based on suffering, which, if true, isn’t far from asserting that ‘you’ create suffering (as we confuse us with our selves).

You have a point there. We are the very self that I’m talking about that creates suffering. I’d say we both have an involvement in it and it’s “automatic” at the same time. So let’s take for example the need to fit in and the suffering that comes from being rejected from the social group. We are genetically wired to want to fit in and not be rejected, so the suffering that comes from that is automatic. But maybe at the same time we have a role in it by feeding those negative thoughts, maintaining tension in the body etc. So it’s like it’s both. Which one is greater I don’t know. 
 

20 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

That’s an interesting perspective. I’d add that we might have made this decision unconsciously. It’s tricky not to position oneself in a reactive or victimizing stance about things we have more control over than we think. If it turns out that it is in fact generated by us, then what does it take to experience that as a reality?

I think in general it’s a good idea to be open to the idea of being involved in generating one’s suffering, because let’s say it’s true, then one doesn’t wanna miss out on the opportunity to lessen the suffering rather than just feeling like a victim. So I’m with you there.

[UnbornTao]

On 12/20/2024 at 7:08 PM, Sugarcoat said:

You have a point there. We are the very self that I’m talking about that creates suffering. I’d say we both have an involvement in it and it’s “automatic” at the same time. So let’s take for example the need to fit in and the suffering that comes from being rejected from the social group. We are genetically wired to want to fit in and not be rejected, so the suffering that comes from that is automatic. But maybe at the same time we have a role in it by feeding those negative thoughts, maintaining tension in the body etc. So it’s like it’s both. Which one is greater I don’t know. 
 

We take ourselves to be a self although we should leave the possibility open that it might not be the case at all--I'm distinguishing between our nature, or being, and our selves (self). 

Yes, that can be a minor example, and many more like that one abound. Also, it is much more profound than that. At the very core of self-persistence, surviving itself might be what suffering is based on. This is what the Buddhist phrase "No self, no problem" may be trying to point out. But personally realizing what it is actually saying is a whole different beast than hearing about it and understanding it. 

If we create the self, and if becoming conscious of how we do that is done, then it turns out that a lot of suffering can be transcended. As a reality, I'd imagine this would take some serious work and mind mastery, but it would be doable. 

On 12/20/2024 at 7:08 PM, Sugarcoat said:

I think in general it’s a good idea to be open to the idea of being involved in generating one’s suffering, because let’s say it’s true, then one doesn’t wanna miss out on the opportunity to lessen the suffering rather than just feeling like a victim. So I’m with you there.

We can move in that direction for sure, starting with little things, such as by becoming conscious of what activities such as worry and envy are. 

[Sugarcoat]

16 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

We take ourselves to be a self although we should leave the possibility open that it might not be the case at all--I'm distinguishing between our nature, or being, and our selves (self). 

Yes the self is not questioned by most it seems

16 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Yes, that can be a minor example, and many more like that one abound. Also, it is much more profound than that. At the very core of self-persistence, surviving itself might be what suffering is based on. This is what the Buddhist phrase "No self, no problem" may be trying to point out. But personally realizing what it is actually saying is a whole different beast than hearing about it and understanding it. 

 

Yes exactly the selfs survival agenda creates suffering. Personally realizing this takes a lot of self awareness I believe 

16 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

If we create the self, and if becoming conscious of how we do that is done, then it turns out that a lot of suffering can be transcended. As a reality, I'd imagine this would take some serious work and mind mastery, but it would be doable. 

We can move in that direction for sure, starting with little things, such as by becoming conscious of what activities such as worry and envy are. 

I’m not sure if i agree that we create the self. But we are for sure involved in maintaining it. And we can change that involvement. Once again takes self awareness. Regardless it’s a good idea in general to try to become aware of one’s role in suffering as much as possible to try to minimize it

[Buck Edwards]

It's only when we work towards our suffering we can end suffering. 

[Raze]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtBbIBBu6FY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve6UU_9ttbU
 

[UnbornTao]

@Sugarcoat You are still considering suffering to be created by a source external to you. This disposition is the one that's worth challenging. "Yes, I am creating it. It isn't just that I'm participating in it, but rather that I'm actively doing suffering now." To be clear, I'm not referring to the pain of losing a leg or something along these lines, but conceptual-emotional suffering. For example, fear is implicitly suffered--it is enduring an unwanted experience. Yet it is produced by our imagining of the future, among other things. If we weren't imagining a future, fear could not occur. Easier said than done, of course. 

We obviously live as if self were an immutable reality. Where is it found, though? And can one get to a point where she recognizes that it doesn't exist on its own? Seems to be the result of an active process, hence if that process is stopped, we could postulate that self would be largely transcended.

We could, for entertainment's sake, contrast the invention of language with that of self. There's valuable observations to be made with this exercise.

Tricky and fascinating subject. And more profound than we think. 

Edited 2 hours ago by UnbornTao