Vegans vs Meat eaters

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, PurpleTree said:

Well it depends how i look at it.

I can look at it from many different angles. Generally it’s sad to see these animals suffer.

But i’m hoping for lab meat soon.

This is moving the goal posts a bit, no? A little bit of cognitive dissonance.

I was just asking you if it's part of your value system to prioritize your own momentary pleasure over the life of another?

If it is your value, I disagree with it. But I'll at least accept that that's part of your value system, and I won't bug you about it anymore because you don't hold Vegan values.

But if it's not part of your value system and your not okay with prioritizing your pleasure over the life of another, your argument about deliciousness might be little bit out of integrity for you.

[PurpleTree]

2 minutes ago, Emerald said:

This is moving the goal posts a bit, no? A little bit of cognitive dissonance.

I was just asking you if it's part of your value system to prioritize your own momentary pleasure over the life of another?

If it is your value, I disagree with it. But I'll at least accept that that's part of your value system, and I won't bug you about it anymore because you don't hold Vegan values.

But if it's not part of your value system and your not okay with prioritizing your pleasure over the life of another, your argument about deliciousness might be little bit out of integrity for you.

Well it’s also that i have some gut issues and meat is one of the proteins that are healthy ish and available for me. I don’t do well with chickpeas and eggs for example.

So i mostly prioritise my well being over others. But i would be in favour of banning most factory farming etc.

[Emerald]

2 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Well it’s also that i have some gut issues and meat is one of the proteins that are healthy ish and available for me. I don’t do well with chickpeas and eggs for example.

So i mostly prioritise my well being over others. But i would be in favour of banning most factory farming etc.

But this moves the goal posts from your original argument. (And Vegans have generally heard every argument and justification, which is 99% people trying to find a valid reason to justify their own behavior to themselves to deal with the cognitive dissonance of doing something they themselves disagree with.)

It's moving the goal posts, because your original argument was about deliciousness and how you eat animals because they're more delicious than grain. You weren't originally arguing that it was because of prioritizing your well-being.

That's just the secondary argument you chose to run away to when I confronted you with the "pleasure vs life" question.

I honestly like it when people make the argument about pleasure... because it's a lot more honest than the vast majority of other arguments. 

The real reason why 95% of people in developed nations eat animals is because they taste good and they prioritize their pleasure over the animal's lives. That's the reality of it.

It's why I used to eat meat, eggs, and dairy. They tasted good. And I prioritized that pleasure over my own values.

And that was why it was difficult to go Vegan because I had to face that about myself that I was living out of integrity with my own values, and I was prioritizing my own hedonic joys over sentient life.

I had to see that I shared similarities with rapists who prioritize their momentary pleasure over someone else's quality of life and well-being.

There was no lying to myself anymore and going into cognitive dissonance with the 532 arguments that every non-Vegan with Vegan values uses to justify their behavior to themselves.

So, most people do prioritize their own pleasure and creature comforts over the life of another. They just don't agree with the ethics of it if you confront them about it and ask them about it directly because very few people like the idea of being the type of person that prioritizes their pleasure over the life of another.

[PurpleTree]

1 minute ago, Emerald said:

But this moves the goal posts from your original argument. (And Vegans have generally heard every argument and justification, which is 99% people trying to find a valid reason to justify their own behavior to themselves to deal with the cognitive dissonance of doing something they themselves disagree with.)

It's moving the goal posts, because your original argument was about deliciousness and how you eat animals because they're more delicious than grain. You weren't originally arguing that it was because of prioritizing your well-being.

That's just the secondary argument you chose to run away to when I confronted you with the "pleasure vs life" question.

I honestly like it when people make the argument about pleasure... because it's a lot more honest than the vast majority of other arguments. 

The real reason why 95% of people in developed nations eat animals is because they taste good and they prioritize their pleasure over the animal's lives. That's the reality of it.

It's why I used to eat meat, eggs, and dairy. They tasted good. And I prioritized that pleasure over my own values.

And that was why it was difficult to go Vegan because I had to face that about myself that I was living out of integrity with my own values, and I was prioritizing my own hedonic joys over sentient life.

I had to see that I shared similarities with rapists who prioritize their momentary pleasure over someone else's quality of life and well-being.

There was no lying to myself anymore and going into cognitive dissonance with the 532 arguments that every non-Vegan with Vegan values uses to justify their behavior to themselves.

So, most people do prioritize their own pleasure and creature comforts over the life of another. They just don't agree with the ethics of it if you confront them about it and ask them about it directly because very few people like the idea of being the type of person that prioritizes their pleasure over the life of another.

Well they do taste great for sure. For example lamb is so delicious but because it’s so cute i try to only eat it like twice a year.

I once heard a comedian make the point that you wouldn’t want a lion to feel guilty about eating you, at least he should enjoy it. Same with humans eating cows,  it’s weak to eat it while being sorry for the cow and it helps nobody. Now you’re killing animals and don’t even enjoy eating them. Better fully enjoy it. But anyhow i don’t believe in free will anyway so it’s whatever.

[Scholar]

1 minute ago, PurpleTree said:

Well they do taste great for sure. For example lamb is so delicious but because it’s so cute i try to only eat it like twice a year.

I once heard a comedian make the point that you wouldn’t want a lion to feel guilty about eating you, at least he should enjoy it. Same with humans eating cows,  it’s weak to eat it while being sorry for the cow and it helps nobody. Now you’re killing animals and don’t even enjoy eating them. Better fully enjoy it. But anyhow i don’t believe in free will anyway so it’s whatever.

Purple, step outside of the box right now.

Look at your own post, and think about why some of the things you wrote here might have deep flaws in them, that you on further reflection might not believe in.

 

Can you spot something?

[PurpleTree]

1 minute ago, Scholar said:

Purple, step outside of the box right now.

Look at your own post, and think about why some of the things you wrote here might have deep flaws in them, that you on further reflection might not believe in.

 

Can you spot something?

No

[Scholar]

5 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Same with humans eating cows,  it’s weak to eat it while being sorry for the cow and it helps nobody.

Do you think sometimes feelings of guilt could help someone?

 

6 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

But anyhow i don’t believe in free will anyway so it’s whatever.

Can you see how this statement, if applied the way you did, could be applied to things you wouldn't deem acceptable?

[PurpleTree]

1 minute ago, Scholar said:

Do you think sometimes feelings of guilt could help someone?

 

Can you see how this statement, if applied the way you did, could be applied to things you wouldn't deem acceptable?

Well i don’t have free will to feel sorry for the cow or not. 

[Emerald]

26 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Well they do taste great for sure. For example lamb is so delicious but because it’s so cute i try to only eat it like twice a year.

I once heard a comedian make the point that you wouldn’t want a lion to feel guilty about eating you, at least he should enjoy it. Same with humans eating cows,  it’s weak to eat it while being sorry for the cow and it helps nobody. Now you’re killing animals and don’t even enjoy eating them. Better fully enjoy it. But anyhow i don’t believe in free will anyway so it’s whatever.

There's a lot of cognitive dissonance in your posts. You're trying to justify things to yourself and you're using a lot of arguments that don't really reconcile to do so.

And it's making my point that you're making arguments that you don't really agree with to support values that you don't really agree with to continue doing actions that you don't really agree with.

If you really agreed with your values, you would just say "Yes, I eat animals for pleasure. And I think it's fine for humans to eat animals for pleasure because I see human pleasure as having a higher value than an animal's life." and that would be it. And I'd leave you alone.

But you don't really seem to agree with that, so you're twisting your original argument (which was more honest) into a rationale for eating animals and a justification for that rationale that sits better with your internal compass. This is why you keep moving the goal posts.

That's why you're fast changing through five different unrelated arguments in just this short post. You're trying to avoid becoming aware that you're operating outside of your own integrity.

And you're trying to justify yourself to yourself via this conversation with me, when you don't need to do that.

Just be honest with yourself about what your values really are. That's all I'm hoping for anyone to do.

[PurpleTree]

4 minutes ago, Emerald said:

There's a lot of cognitive dissonance in your posts. You're trying to justify things to yourself and you're using a lot of arguments that don't really reconcile to do so.

And it's making my point that you're making arguments that you don't really agree with to support values that you don't really agree with to continue doing actions that you don't really agree with.

If you really agreed with your values, you would just say "Yes, I eat animals for pleasure. And I think it's fine for humans to eat animals for pleasure because I see human pleasure as having a higher value than an animal's life." and that would be it. And I'd leave you alone.

But you don't really seem to agree with that, so you're twisting your original argument (which was more honest) into a rationale for eating animals and a justification for that rationale that sits better with your internal compass. This is why you keep moving the goal posts.

That's why you're fast changing through five different unrelated arguments in just this short post. You're trying to avoid becoming aware that you're operating outside of your own integrity.

And you're trying to justify yourself to yourself via this conversation with me, when you don't need to do that.

Just be honest with yourself about what your values really are. That's all I'm hoping for anyone to do.

I don’t have values. There is no me really to have anything. I don’t own anything. 

 

 

 

there checkmated.

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, PurpleTree said:

I don’t have values. There is no me really to have anything. I don’t own anything. 

 

 

 

there checkmated.

Well, that doesn't prove the exact point I was making at all.  

Also, you're not the first to make an "it's okay to eat animals because there is no me" argument.

I've heard them all. But these are just arguments people have with themselves to hide themselves from themselves.

[yetineti]

A classic thread. Meat Eaters run their mouthes without a thought and Vegans moralize the majority on their high horse. Yippee!

[AION]

What about valuing yourself?

Notice how they all think they are healthy while their physical body tells a different story.

Edited 7 hours ago by AION

[cistanche_enjoyer]

It’s impossible to be 100% healthy while getting all your protein from tofu, chickpeas and other legumes. These things are full of antinutrients, oxalates, and often imported from third world countries that use intensive agriculture and pesticides that destroy the environment (these pesticides leak in the food too).

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2949790624000673

If you have the option to get beef from local farms that use rigenerative agriculture, that’s gonna be the best choice.

[Jannes]

7 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

I once heard a comedian make the point that you wouldn’t want a lion to feel guilty about eating you, at least he should enjoy it. Same with humans eating cows,  it’s weak to eat it while being sorry for the cow and it helps nobody. Now you’re killing animals and don’t even enjoy eating them. Better fully enjoy it. But anyhow i don’t believe in free will anyway so it’s whatever.

The lion is in a different survival situation. He isnt intelligent enough to have concepts like morality. He is also a carnivore. He is also keeping the population of herbivores in check and actually helps the environment while humans built an artificial environment with their factory farming which you can simply get rid of for something else. 

[BlueOak]

Before I was vegan I barely had any conscious thoughts of animals. I was shoving fast food down my gut every week. For me at least it created a profound shift in awareness. It brought one of the biggest jumps in enlightenment i've had. Both towards my body awareness, diet and animals right down to insects.

@PurpleTree
Grain + vegetables can be delicious when cooked well with the right sauces. Your cravings come from what you are used to eating. Its a biological reaction that changes.

Edited 5 hours ago by BlueOak

[PurpleTree]

8 hours ago, Emerald said:

Well, that doesn't prove the exact point I was making at all.  

Also, you're not the first to make an "it's okay to eat animals because there is no me" argument.

I've heard them all. But these are just arguments people have with themselves to hide themselves from themselves.

Well have you looked into no duality?

Maybe it’s true.
And if there’s no free will your psychology and Jungian concepts seemingly mostly collapse.

[PurpleTree]

10 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

Well it’s also that i have some gut issues and meat is one of the proteins that are healthy ish and available for me. I don’t do well with chickpeas and eggs for example.

So i mostly prioritise my well being over others. But i would be in favour of banning most factory farming etc.

 

1 hour ago, BlueOak said:

@PurpleTree
Grain + vegetables can be delicious when cooked well with the right sauces. Your cravings come from what you are used to eating. Its a biological reaction that changes.

That grains taste horrible and 16 of your american weight make 1 delicious thing was mostly a joke. But then i went on to talk about gut issues and such but you guys seemingly only read what you want to see.

[BlueOak]

24 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

 

That grains taste horrible and 16 of your american weight make 1 delicious thing was mostly a joke. But then i went on to talk about gut issues and such but you guys seemingly only read what you want to see.

Its true I didn't see your other comment, and it wasn't a comment on your diet at all.

I was merely saying as someone who lived off grains for 14 years as a big part of the diet, i've learned to cook rice, pasta, couscous, and quinoa deliciously. Just recently i've upgraded to a proper rice cooker dedicated to it and with the right herbs its better than fluffy bread.

Also, I am not American not that it matters.

Edited 3 hours ago by BlueOak

[PurpleTree]

edith

Edited 2 hours ago by PurpleTree