Reincarnation

[Someone here]

@Javfly33 @Ishanga @Breakingthewall

In Buddhism they believe in reincarnation and karma. You keep reincarnating after death until you "pay" all your karma and then you stop and cease to exist completely. That state of cessation and nothingness is called "Nirvana ". It's basically a form of salvation and being free from the sufferings of life. (because according to Buddhism.. life is suffering). 

I was raised as a Hindu.  Hinduism also have moksha . Which is when the self realises its The Self .when the drop realises its the entire ocean and dissolves into infinity . Its also in Hinduism called when atman (the human self ) awakens to the realization that its Brahman (the universal Self or the "all")

What do you think of the Buddhist and Hindu narrative? And what is your own definition of Nirvana?  

Of course anyone is free to comment..maybe Leo or @Princess Arabia or @Davino  or @Hojo  or @Razard86etc . But I tagged these three members on top because I read them using these terms often and i want to get a full comprehensive idea of how this works .

To me..life is not a video game ..with past lives and accumulated karma and shit like that  . We just born ..live ..die ..and disappear as a finite human..and then you exist as formless consciousness forever. But then again why the hell shouldn't a limited form exist again ? Bottom line is consciousness is immortal .it can't die in its most basic absolute form .but the details remain a mystery. I guess we all gonna die and find out .or...?

Edited Saturday at 04:38 AM by Someone here

[Ajay0]

Reincarnation has been part of eastern Dharmic religions ( Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism,Sikhism ) as well as Taoism,  and also native european belief systems such as the Orphic Greeks, Celts, native German, Slav and Norse religions for milleniums.

 Reincarnation is also a belief in native north American tribes such as the Inuit, Navajo, Tlingit, Haida. Gitxsan,  Dene Dháa . Also african tribes such as the Igbo, Nupe and Yoruba of Nigeria, Akamba of Kenya, Akan of Ghana, Baganda of Uganda. Also in some cultural groups in the native Australians.

Even in the Abrahamic traditions, reincarnation as a belief exists among the Druze, Islamic shia sects (Alawites, Ahmadi religion of peace and light. ) , Jewish Kaballah, early Christian sects of Cathars, Bologmils ( which were persecuted to extinction by the Catholic church) and modern christian sects like 'The Christian Community , 'The Order of The Cross' , Kardecism.

In western psychiatry and psychology as well, the likes of Dr. Brian Weiss, Dr. Michael Newton , Dr. Ian stevenson ,Dr. Jim Tucker and others has compiled a body of research work substantiating reincarnation and showing that it may have a basis in fact.

Edited Saturday at 08:10 AM by Ajay0

[Ishanga]

@Someone here Because I can't remember any previous lives or physical deaths, I try not to believe or disbelieve anything I learn about, especially matters such as this, reincarnation, but it sounds good!

I think this process comes about via Karma at play, it has to be worked out or burned up and most times it takes more than 80 yrs to do so, since ppl are creating more Karma along the way, so as they say many lifetimes are needed to play it all out... 

In the end its all about Absolute, this Brahma getting to experience and express itself imho, otherwise why are we and all this creation here?? Sadhguru says to never ask why, when You do then as story has to be told to You and via that a belief or disbelief is born which leads us further away from Experientially knowing, someday we will find out for sure:)

[Hojo]

Best way I can describe what I think reincarnation is with simulation theory.

Pretend that you are a computer right now you have a hard drive you have a gpu you have ram you have a power supply and you have power.The power coming into the computer is God. You are so used to the on state that you forget that you even have seperate parts working in unison to create your experience. Death would be like you noticing all your separate parts working together to form your current experience as the power slowly leaves them one at a time and then you sit there in an off state and forget you were even running a simulation.

Most people dont know there is something that is them but not them flowing through them the energy of God. The creator of their simulation.(coming from the plug in the wall) Seeing this is the first part of spirituality.

Now God is farming simulations. The simulations can over time remeber their off states. They become aware enough to 'see' when they are off and they will remeber that they are a simulation faster when they are turned on. This is a signal to God (the power in you coming from an unknown source like a plug in the wall) that you are gaining consciousness.

We as simulation have information from our own computers that is being uploaded to the internet and we are playing a video game together as the energy of God flowing through our computers.

Moksha (I think) is like the simulation saying

Hey! Im not the computer im the power coming from the plug in the wall! Im going to go there when I die and  merge with the fucking energy of the universe, not just sit in my off state.

Or its like the computer saying hey my avatar dosent exist on a personal computer it exists within the internet and when you die you live on the internet not a personal computer simulation and never turn off.

Not knowing this is sitting as an off computer until someone uses your simulation again.

Edited Saturday at 12:16 PM by Hojo

[Javfly33]

Now that you talk about Hinduism: Something interesting in that lineage is that Shiva (the masculine) is the destructor and Shakti (the femenine) is the creator. Shakti (the femenine) tempts Shiva with his dance, and in this moment Shiva sacrifices its own emptiness and no-movement, towards going to do an action (go towards Shakti). In this movement, Shiva creates karma (the act of going towards a woman is a certain volition, isn´t it? We men know it very well)

So that women are a great distraction for men in spirituality is not a coincidence. The mere desire and craving of men for female Beauty, is one of the main acts you are entangled here, Shakti will keep tempting you, and you will keep yourself in the chains of this karmic dance. 

Notice what is the driving force that makes a man go out at night to pick up girls, or go to the gym to lift weights and appear muscular, these is not a driving force that liberates you, this is a driving force that entangles you. 

In an opposite way, when you meditate (or a similar spiritual practice) you stop creating karma. Because there is no tendency there, there is no volition. 

Edited Saturday at 01:30 PM by Javfly33

[Someone here]

10 hours ago, Ajay0 said:

Reincarnation has been part of eastern Dharmic religions ( Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism,Sikhism ) as well as Taoism,  and also native european belief systems such as the Orphic Greeks, Celts, native German, Slav and Norse religions for milleniums.

 Reincarnation is also a belief in native north American tribes such as the Inuit, Navajo, Tlingit, Haida. Gitxsan,  Dene Dháa . Also african tribes such as the Igbo, Nupe and Yoruba of Nigeria, Akamba of Kenya, Akan of Ghana, Baganda of Uganda. Also in some cultural groups in the native Australians.

Even in the Abrahamic traditions, reincarnation as a belief exists among the Druze, Islamic shia sects (Alawites, Ahmadi religion of peace and light. ) , Jewish Kaballah, early Christian sects of Cathars, Bologmils ( which were persecuted to extinction by the Catholic church) and modern christian sects like 'The Christian Community , 'The Order of The Cross' , Kardecism.

In western psychiatry and psychology as well, the likes of Dr. Brian Weiss, Dr. Michael Newton , Dr. Ian stevenson ,Dr. Jim Tucker and others has compiled a body of research work substantiating reincarnation and showing that it may have a basis in fact.

Thanks for information.  Very interesting.  

[Someone here]

@Ishanga@Javfly33 @Hojo  

 what exactly the thing that reincarnates? The body? The soul? The self? The Self? The awareness? The ego? All? Some? What??? 

Because as a matter of observable fact the body decays into dust and rot alright?.. Once your physical body dies it just dissolves into it's essential elements and just evaporates in nature.. Gets diffused into the soil etc.  So that's that.  What is it exactly that reincarnates then because obviously it's not the body?  The self? There is no self "inside "the body lol !.  The body is inside the" Self".  There is no ghost inside the machine. What you really have is a machine inside the ghost lol. The self (ego) is a negative hole that appears as a consequence (byproduct) of entanglement of thoughts.. perceptions.. feelings etc. It's a misidentification really. It's a negative.. not an existing entity onto itself.  So there is no self to reincarnate.   IMO reincarnation is no different from Abrahamic religion's notions of hell and heaven.. Both have ZERO evidence!. 

As for karma as an evidence that supports reincarnation.. Well it's simply that for each up there is a down and for each action there is a reaction. You throw up a ball in the sky.. It falls down in the opposite direction taking the exact time that it took to reach the highest peak to fall from it into the ground. That's karma.   The universe is already at perfect balance. There is no need for reincarnation to achieve balance as if balance could be lost to begin with. Balance is already the case.  It's inconceivable that something unbalanced could even exist!  And if you look at it from a pantheistic worldview.. You are already living inside every creature in this planet.. So at the moment that you are beheading a chicken you are the chicken that's being beheaded and the human who is beheading it simultaneously. Karma is instant. 

 

[Hojo]

@Someone here The unknown gets reincarnated. Something that isn't in the simulation.

[Someone here]

5 minutes ago, Hojo said:

@Someone here The unknown gets reincarnated. Something that isn't in the simulation.

You mean nothingness? We agree the body does not reincarnate because once it dies it gets dissolved into the earth .

I think you'd have to posit an eternal primordial substance that doesn't die .

[_Archangel_]

Hinduism and Buddhism at the very end of the path look pretty much the same, the best sages knows that and leave the discussion to scholars who are more interested in the unending doctrinal disputes then in the actual Awakening process. Because they know that any attempt to create a coherent expleation expleation of Reality is a construction, a made-up fantasy that you have to think it out like you are writing a novel.

A good spiritual system shouldn't attempt to describe reality (for the reasons above) but should aim to bring its practitioners to Awakening.

The doctrines of Atman and Anatman are both correct and incorrect, all depending on your POV.

Edited Saturday at 07:21 PM by _Archangel_

[Hojo]

@Someone here Its behind you without turning your head.

[Javfly33]

@Someone here That is correct. Body dissolves and becomes part of the earth.

What reincarnates is reality itself.

 

[Breakingthewall]

Reincarnation intuitively seems very possible, I feel that life is a path to learn, but that's true? Maybe all mystics had this kind of feeling and they accepted that reincarnation is a logical possibility. In other hand many said that they remember past lifes, but is that true? Maybe. I think it's a possibility quite possible 

[Razard86]

My comment is simple, Direct experience is king. Eventually you will get tired of wondering and seek a mystical experience and that experience will show you. Spiritual teachings are there to awaken the God within you and the path to awakening it is a heartfelt true desire to answer the questions you have above. In altered states your mind is fluid enough to access the God within you which is pure heart, pure acceptance. Its both neutral and absolutely good and pure and innocent. 

I will be happy for you when you get the answer. If you were in the States I could send you a link to a legal way to enter an altered state but you live in India I believe. But aim to enter an altered state and then ask yourself to awaken. 

[Ishanga]

6 hours ago, Someone here said:

@Ishanga@Javfly33 @Hojo  

 what exactly the thing that reincarnates? The body? The soul? The self? The Self? The awareness? The ego? All? Some? What??? 

Because as a matter of observable fact the body decays into dust and rot alright?.. Once your physical body dies it just dissolves into it's essential elements and just evaporates in nature.. Gets diffused into the soil etc.  So that's that.  What is it exactly that reincarnates then because obviously it's not the body?  The self? There is no self "inside "the body lol !.  The body is inside the" Self".  There is no ghost inside the machine. What you really have is a machine inside the ghost lol. The self (ego) is a negative hole that appears as a consequence (byproduct) of entanglement of thoughts.. perceptions.. feelings etc. It's a misidentification really. It's a negative.. not an existing entity onto itself.  So there is no self to reincarnate.   IMO reincarnation is no different from Abrahamic religion's notions of hell and heaven.. Both have ZERO evidence!. 

As for karma as an evidence that supports reincarnation.. Well it's simply that for each up there is a down and for each action there is a reaction. You throw up a ball in the sky.. It falls down in the opposite direction taking the exact time that it took to reach the highest peak to fall from it into the ground. That's karma.   The universe is already at perfect balance. There is no need for reincarnation to achieve balance as if balance could be lost to begin with. Balance is already the case.  It's inconceivable that something unbalanced could even exist!  And if you look at it from a pantheistic worldview.. You are already living inside every creature in this planet.. So at the moment that you are beheading a chicken you are the chicken that's being beheaded and the human who is beheading it simultaneously. Karma is instant. 

 

I've shared the 5 Sheaths Theory before here on the Forum, I think it explains it well and detailed as to what reincarnates and such...

What dissolves at physical death is the Earth Body and the Mind Body (Intellect, Discretion, Personal Memories and such), what goes on is the Energy Body, Etheric Body, Bliss Body (I am not sure what the Bliss Body is, is it a covering for the Atman/Soul, or is it that itself??)  Karma is Stored in the Energy Body, so that goes along as reincarnation is happening...

Some of what Your talking about is not Karma, its Duality at play which can cause Karma to be in place and being created moment to moment I guess? Karma is cause and affect, residual memory imprints from previous actions in 4 places as a Human Being, Body, Mind, Emotion and Energy, action in these 4 areas are happening on a moment to moment basis, how Aware are You/WE of these actions all the time?? Probably its at a nil level, so therefore most ppl are living by accident, not on purpose or with Consciousness of What they are, and What it means to be Human...But the situation is set up to be perfect almost, Nature if left alone is almost Perfect, the way our planet revolves around the Sun for as long as it is and will be, its perfect, as it the rest of the Universe and Existence, but things are not so perfect on this planet in the Human World, cause we have Free Choice/Will to chose how to experience this perfect place and Universe, via Unconsciousness or Consciousness??

 

Edited Sunday at 12:32 AM by Ishanga

[theleelajoker]

My 5 cents:

• No matter what solution/concept we discuss here re reincarnation - it's still a story. Some people apparently said some things about reality, and suddenly it's a thing.
• Green lamas are gonna rule the universe. I found an old scroll where Jesus talks about it, Sadhguru was there too they both agree and [enter random Name here] believes the same
• So why do we even assume there is a "constant thing" like reincarnation that defines reality?
• If reality is one thing, then it's constant change, isn't it?  So maybe reincarnation was a thing once, no it is no more? Maybe it will come back like the 80s
• Maybe everyone lives out his/her own reality: You get reincarnated, I don't. Coin flip, nothing else. 
• Why do we assume that there are fixed rules governing all of us the same? Yeah, humans are similar, we all breath, eat, sleep etc but we all also create our own subjective reality and if we are one thing, then we are different, right?
• So many people talk like they know sth. I say nobody knows anything.  I say nobody knows shit.

Edited Sunday at 12:35 AM by theleelajoker

[Aaron p]

1 hour ago, theleelajoker said:

  I say nobody knows shit.

@theleelajoker i sense that there are broadly speaking 2 categories of people in this com. the ones who love the theories and mental investigation and occasional trip...and the ones who have met God. I will humbly admit to just loving the artistry of the concepts and amazing thought experiments, but the ones who go very deep and read the forum probably think to themselves "these guys have no idea in the slightest what theyre even talking about" lol i sense a canyon of a difference between the two and look forward to becoming a fully fledged "deep work" category belonger when i get my financial and social life to where i want it    

[Ishanga]

9 hours ago, Aaron p said:

@theleelajoker i sense that there are broadly speaking 2 categories of people in this com. the ones who love the theories and mental investigation and occasional trip...and the ones who have met God. I will humbly admit to just loving the artistry of the concepts and amazing thought experiments, but the ones who go very deep and read the forum probably think to themselves "these guys have no idea in the slightest what theyre even talking about" lol i sense a canyon of a difference between the two and look forward to becoming a fully fledged "deep work" category belonger when i get my financial and social life to where i want it    

I think the key thing is the there are many levels between the 2 categorise, its not just ppl that believe and ppl that know, there are those that have had the experience of Oneness, it changed them but did not Transform them, big difference! Transform means nothing of the old remains, that is not the case here for many, for some maybe. 

I'm in the middle, I've gone thru the theory and belief stage, I've done years and years of sadhana and work, now not so much, not in the traditional way, but all of this has created a certain Karma for Me, I'm on the tip of the peak it seems, still have a ways to go, ego still flares up but it vanishes quicker after a flare up every year, even in a bad mood, treating ppl well it natural for Me, jokes come out naturally, my interaction is not selfish for the most part, unless You cut me off in traffic lol, can't stand that:) I'm just took caught up in a few survival processes, someday it may drop internally as a Realization, then I will go from there...

[Javfly33]

16 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Reincarnation intuitively seems very possible, I feel that life is a path to learn, but that's true? Maybe all mystics had this kind of feeling and they accepted that reincarnation is a logical possibility. In other hand many said that they remember past lifes, but is that true? Maybe. I think it's a possibility quite possible 

@Breakingthewall @Someone here I think the key here shouldn't be whether reeincarnation exists or not but whether in what ways our life is a replication of someone else's acts

Because clearly, in a way, reality is reincarnating. Yesterday more than 300.000 babies were born. There is the proof, that Reality is recycling itself. Without new babies, without new life happening, even if reincarnation exist you would not have a body to reincarnate into. 

I see interesting in observing the following: When you are having sex with a woman what is that you are doing? In a way, You are doing an act based on a memory imprint on the system, on a certain volition, this imprint tells you, feel attraction towards that woman, and not towards a dog. 

So the process of creation comes with a certain software, so it can replicate itself. Because the creation wants to survive, so it makes you horny, so you can have sex and reality can keep replicating. 

So there is something clear: We don´t exactly know if you had past lifes or if you will have future lives, but is clear there are certain acts in reality that allow reality to keep replicating itself. 

So even if this is your last life for you, you are collaborating with the software that makes the replication possible. Whether it will be you or not, we don´t know it. But some parts of Reality will have to give life to those 300.000 babies bodies. 

Edited Sunday at 12:51 PM by Javfly33

[Ishanga]

It was a Neil Degrasse Tyson TV show where he said we share the DNA of flowers, plants, ants, insects, trees and such in our own DNA, that is physical proof that something is going on, we were something before we were this human being we are now, so reincarnation as they state it in Hinduism and yoga makes logical sense to me, which means the law of Karma, Cause and Effect, Residual results of Actions taken affect our daily lives, and Free Will is quite correct conceptually. the question is how did they know this a few thousand years ago? They knew it because they knew the mechanics of Life, how it started and how it will end, the complete story because we are micro Universes, everything is connected, we are not separate from it, on Body/Mind level we are, that is the beauty of this creation, of being Human, we have Individuality and Oneness/Completeness with Everything at the sametime, no other life has this ability to Experience and/or Choice to invoke within themselves!

 

Edited Sunday at 01:01 PM by Ishanga