Was Bernie Sanders' movement all for nothing?

[PurpleTree]

1 minute ago, Hardkill said:

There would be much less of a difference in voting for either party just like how similar the parties were during the mid-1900s. Maybe that could heal the country from the terrible divisions in our country while accelerating the destabilization of our existing system until the country is forced to radically transform into a more progressive country.

But then why even have two parties?

[Hardkill]

3 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

But then why even have two parties?

We probably shouldn't.

George Washington was right when he said that having a duopoly in politics was a mistake.

I wish we could have a multi-party system like in Canada, but of course that's never going to happen for the foreseeable future either.

Edited December 10 by Hardkill

[Emerald]

On 12/9/2024 at 7:40 PM, Hardkill said:

What will be Bernie's legacy when he passes away?

I understand that progress doesn't happen as fast as many of us want.

However, what did Bernie Sanders really accomplish for the country?

None of his policies and ideas will ever get enacted in our lifetimes and he was in great partly responsible for the election of Trump in 2016 thanks to his whole widespread "Bernie or bust" effect.

So, then there is:

Correct me, if I am wrong, but it seems like even Leo has been suggesting that he lately has come to the realization that he was wrong about that.

I liked Emerald about progress in the long-run:

Yet, even if enough people finally begin to realize what a disaster Trumpism is, it might already be too late to fix all of the unfathomable damage that will be done to this country and perhaps every bit of progress ever made in this country since the 1930s will have been erased by Trumpism. Also, the country will still elect another center-left Democrat for president.

Also, attacking, neoliberalism, centrism, and corporate Democrats backfires.

So, in the end, was Sander's movement a complete failure and should progressives and Democrats move back to the center for the next 1 to 5 decades?

Bernie has woken me up to politics. It was either him or Trump. You could credit them both as equal catalysts for progressive awakening. Those are huge positives of the current era that will have ripple effects for generations to come. 

And I think a lot of people around my age (30s) were woken up by Bernie and his Social Democratic politics.

But attacking neoliberalism, centrism, and corporate Democrats is just par for the course. It's just going to happen.

The same with Fascism rising. It's just going to happen.

When the center of society stops working for the majority of people, you get both leftward and rightward polarization to try to create a new and better reality. That's basically what left and right wing Populism promises... but right wing Populism can only really offer scapegoats to blame instead of offering real positive policy change.

But you're not going to ever suppress these political patterns because these are really just broad-scale collective psychological dynamics playing themselves out in a political form. And now is just the time for these forces to come forward.

My prediction is that Republicans will shift further to the right... and the Democrats will do the same.

And most people will hate it because it will be like putting a second grader back in the first grade. And in four years, things will pendulum swing further into the progressive direction.

The main point is that times of regression leads to times of progress... and times of progress lead to times of regression which begets more progress. And so on and so on.

It will suck for now, but things certainly won't spend 50 years on the backswing. People will get fed up when the Fascists don't deliver for them.

[Hardkill]

2 hours ago, Emerald said:

Bernie has woken me up to politics. It was either him or Trump. You could credit them both as equal catalysts for progressive awakening. Those are huge positives of the current era that will have ripple effects for generations to come. 

And I think a lot of people around my age (30s) were woken up by Bernie and his Social Democratic politics.

But attacking neoliberalism, centrism, and corporate Democrats is just par for the course. It's just going to happen.

The same with Fascism rising. It's just going to happen.

When the center of society stops working for the majority of people, you get both leftward and rightward polarization to try to create a new and better reality. That's basically what left and right wing Populism promises... but right wing Populism can only really offer scapegoats to blame instead of offering real positive policy change.

But you're not going to ever suppress these political patterns because these are really just broad-scale collective psychological dynamics playing themselves out in a political form. And now is just the time for these forces to come forward.

My prediction is that Republicans will shift further to the right... and the Democrats will do the same.

And most people will hate it because it will be like putting a second grader back in the first grade. And in four years, things will pendulum swing further into the progressive direction.

The main point is that times of regression leads to times of progress... and times of progress lead to times of regression which begets more progress. And so on and so on.

It will suck for now, but things certainly won't spend 50 years on the backswing. People will get fed up when the Fascists don't deliver for them.

So, attacking neoliberalism, centrism, and corporate Democrats is inevitable even though Leo doesn't like it when hard left-wingers attack those mainstream politicians or ideologies. 

You think that Democrats may shift back more to the right or center, but only temporarily during these next 4 years, before they swing again towards liberalism/leftism/progressivism more than ever before?

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, Hardkill said:

So, attacking neoliberalism, centrism, and corporate Democrats is inevitable even though Leo doesn't like it when hard left-wingers attack those mainstream politicians or ideologies. 

You think that Democrats may shift back more to the right or center, but only temporarily during these next 4 years, before they swing again towards liberalism/leftism/progressivism more than ever before?

That is my assumption that this period of time will be negative enough that people will sour on the right wing. 

But I disagree with Leo on that criticism. It's just par for the course that a populace that's struggling will come to criticize the status quo and the establishment... and some will polarize left and want to progress into the future towards better times, and some will polarize right to try to resurrect the better times from the past.

And you will have tons of criticism of the establishment in all leaner times. And there is no suppressing that reality. That's especially true because the average person doesn't understand the dangers of authoritarianism that can arise when Populism is a false mask worn to cement authoritarian control.

If Leo were poorer and felt genuinely trapped by economic circumstances (like so many do), my guess is that he'd be far more of a left wing Populist that he is.

It's only the people who are doing okay that can make peace with the current system. It's more of an abstract values-based thing for people who aren't dealing with economic anxiety. 

But for people who don't see a path forwards towards economic stability (which is the position most people are in), you can't just expect them to feel hunky dory about a system that's full of corruption that's designed to give the majority of the benefits to the ultra wealthy and that gives few social good-based benefits for the amount taken in taxes.

And a lot of people are struggling.

Little niceties from Democrats saying, "Don't worry. We're better than Trump. Vote for us to avoid Fascism" isn't going to work on a struggling populace (especially an undereducated one) because the struggling populace wants (and needs) change.

And because they lack the civic education, they will think "Different is better than better" and they'll vote the most different seemingly anti-establishment candidate on offer... even if that candidate rules economically like a typical establishment Neoliberal and rules morally and socially as a Fascist.

[Jodistrict]

Trump has only two years to make real changes.  If he becomes unpopular, the democrats will take over congress in two years and he will be a lame duck.  Changing the system is like trying to move an elephant.  If Trump actually succeeds in disrupting the status quo it could be good in the long run, else it will just be an infinite future of mediocrity being ruled by bureaucrats and kakeling kamelas.  It’s hard to see how to make any real changes in the power structure because big money rules both parties.  So maybe nonlinear change ultimately makes sense.  You go down before you go up.