Human beings are not rational agents, but social agents

[Scholar]

I want to stress this simple fact that is basically determinative of how all of society functions.

Your brain literally has evolved functions to be able to suppress your rational thinking such that you are unable to see contradictions, that if you knew of them, would be detrimental to your survival. This is a feature, not a bug, and it is one of the most essential features to understand about humans in relation to how they function politically, morally and socially.

The context in which we evolved was a complete and utter dependence on the social groups we were born in. Survival, and procreation, was not possible if you were alone, you needed your tribe. This simple fact lead to the evolving of this mechanism, which we describe as cognitive dissonance, so that instead of being killed or ostracized by your group, you would maximize your potential for survival and procreation.

 

The ideologies and belief systems, and general social functionalities of tribal groups contain a significant amount of logical contradictions. If humans were simply rational agents, they would of course immediately spot these inconsistencies. Everyone one of us is actually capable of it. When you are not part of a social group, and your belief system does not align with theirs, it is profoundly easy to point to contradictions in their thinking and doing. Yet, when it comes to your own group, the opposite is the case.

The simple reason for this is that if you were to be able to clearly recognize contradictions, you would lose social coherence within the group. Even if you kept it secret, you would probably behave in ways that would be disfavorable to your survival in the group, and the potential for finding a partner. 

This is a huge problem to solve for evolution, but somehow it did. And you have to realize how sophisticated this solution must be. Your brain, unbeknownst to you, keeps track of the belief and values of your group that are so important that questioning them would cause problems for you. And moreover, your brain is actually capable of blinding you to the contradictions within those beliefs and values, and steer cognition in such a way that instead your brain will provide you with reasons that reinforce those beliefs and values.

Fundamentally, your brain is not designed to seek truth, but social adherence. Social adherence will benefit you far more than truth does, and truth will be incredibly detrimental to you.

 

If you actually were to be truthful and consistent about the very values you and this society holds, you would basically consider most people the equivalent of nazis, and worse. For the simple fact that we put billions of animals into factory farms in which we rape, torture and gas them to death. This one, blantant incoherence in our value system will cause so much cognitive dissonance in you, even if you are a vegan, that you could not possibly be consistent about your application. If you were, you wouldn't be able to survive in this system, you would probably become a terrorist, an actual terrorist, not someone who simply breaks into a slaughterhouse to record some footage.

Because that's what you would do if this happened to human beings. That's what you think, at least. The reality is that you would have been no different from a nazi who turns a blind eye to the holocaust. The fact that you don't constantly complain about the torture of billions of individuals which you don't care about as much simply because they belong to a difference species, is proof that you are victim of this very dynamic.

 

Your mind will not allow you to see how depraved, evil and selfish everyone around you is, because if it did, you would go mad, and then you would be killed, imprisoned or shunned to such a degree you would be a social outcast for the rest of your life.

Edited December 6 by Scholar

[Princess Arabia]

Very eye-opening stuff. 

[Leo Gura]

11 hours ago, Scholar said:

Your mind will not allow you to see how depraved, evil and selfish everyone around you is, because if it did, you would go mad,

You won't go mad, but it will hinder your survival.

Humans live in a fantasy world of their own construction, and if you become intelligent enough to see through that fantasy it hinders your ability to play those games.

Edited Saturday at 12:51 AM by Leo Gura

[Ishanga]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You won't go mad, but it will hinder your survival.

Humans live in a fantasy world of their own construction, and if you become intelligent enough to see through that fantasy it hinders your ability to play those games.

This is True, I see it everyday, I am out and about at work, I'm a courier for a well known company, I'm all over the place, malls, residential areas, hospitals, airports, etc... Ppl today are completely blind and conditioned, self centered, of course there are the rare "good" ones, that are truly polite and well mannered and want the best for themselves and their families, but its limited to just those ppl close to them, and I feel it within myself how living in this environment has effected Me, its like I am seeing a part of myself that is sick and diseased and its spreading, but it doesn't affect me for long periods of time, I feel it for a few minutes then I am back to my happy go lucky self, and I am able to naturally treat all ppl with respect when they deserve it..

I have a philosophy that you can tell the Consciousness of ppl by the way they behave when driving, in Toronto it is nuts here, within 5 mins of leaving my home I will see multiple examples of ppl driving selfishly and unconcerned about others safety and wellbeing, this says allot, its all about aggressive driving here, and ppl are dying everyday because of it, and winter is starting now and nothing changes...

[Princess Arabia]

42 minutes ago, Ishanga said:

This is True, I see it everyday, I am out and about at work, I'm a courier for a well known company, I'm all over the place, malls, residential areas, hospitals, airports, etc... Ppl today are completely blind and conditioned, self centered, of course there are the rare "good" ones, that are truly polite and well mannered and want the best for themselves and their families, but its limited to just those ppl close to them, and I feel it within myself how living in this environment has effected Me, its like I am seeing a part of myself that is sick and diseased and its spreading, but it doesn't affect me for long periods of time, I feel it for a few minutes then I am back to my happy go lucky self, and I am able to naturally treat all ppl with respect when they deserve it..

While I understand where you're coming from with these statements; and yes, people can be crude, I don't think this is what Leo was referring to. I'm intervening and could be wrong, but I just wanted to point out what I think he meant. The ego has constructed a life for itself and is deeply conditioned by it's own beliefs and ways of seeing itself and the world. It lives in it's own fantasy land of deeply rooted belief systems which has been carved with the help of societal constructs and cultural norms. When one can see through this, and realizes they are dealing with a construct and conditioned belief systems and are relating to an unconscious being who isn't aware of this, it becomes extremely difficult to play into that game. People can also be nice, good, respectable and cooperative and still fall into this category. It's just they are so deluded it takes patience for a more aware being to be able to relate to them in their fantasy world. Was this what you meant @Leo Gurain so many words? This is my interpretation and I could be wrong.

 

 

[sholomar]

1 hour ago, Ishanga said:

This is True, I see it everyday, I am out and about at work, I'm a courier for a well known company, I'm all over the place, malls, residential areas, hospitals, airports, etc... Ppl today are completely blind and conditioned, self centered, of course there are the rare "good" ones, that are truly polite and well mannered and want the best for themselves and their families, but its limited to just those ppl close to them, and I feel it within myself how living in this environment has effected Me, its like I am seeing a part of myself that is sick and diseased and its spreading, but it doesn't affect me for long periods of time, I feel it for a few minutes then I am back to my happy go lucky self, and I am able to naturally treat all ppl with respect when they deserve it..

I have a philosophy that you can tell the Consciousness of ppl by the way they behave when driving, in Toronto it is nuts here, within 5 mins of leaving my home I will see multiple examples of ppl driving selfishly and unconcerned about others safety and wellbeing, this says allot, its all about aggressive driving here, and ppl are dying everyday because of it, and winter is starting now and nothing changes...

When were they ever not behaving this way in the evolutionary history of our species? Who's to say what a person "should" behave like? Isn't it better to have freedom to express oneself than say be caught under an autocratic dystopian society where even facial expressions and emotional reactions are controlled by the state? Didn't we create a society so people could do exactly what they are doing today... finding their own path through life their own way?  Do you think people should be socially conditioned to be polite and selfless and disregard their genetic nature?  That takes control over people. What level of control we decide to implement over a society and human behavior will always be the subject open for debate depending on who you are talking too. Who decides what behavior is "correct" will tend to always change and you will never have a society that pleases everyone, nor can you expect people to simply "do the right thing" without rules telling them what "the right thing" actually is. If the society can please the majority while progressing our scientific understanding of this reality while generally providing people with a safe place to "find themselves" (as opposed to being drones in some autocratic collective) I would consider that a success.

 

 

Edited Saturday at 02:25 AM by sholomar

[Mulky]

This is a really great post. Right now there is a huge change happening, and it is making things very awkward for people. The change is that the way we have lived as you have described is now starting to work against us and could even lead to extinction. Alignment with truth is being forced upon us by our circumstances, but we are going to fight it as hard as we can. 

[Letho]

@Scholar Okay and not so terrible but not especially good. Humans are self referential first and foremost. Social creates the self, so we love the feedback we get as it feeds us. Awareness is preoccupied with its workings, so at a certain level it's always going to want to figure out how to feed what social feeds which is necessary for our path of mastery but unnecessary for enjoying our life. If you ramped up peoples awareness, after a certain level so many demographics would just simply breakdown and reform completely as they're predicated on the social ego that's created for each individual that makes that demographic.

I'm not going to address everything you said but I am open to dialogue.

As for "humans don't seek truth", by its very existence means that you're wrong about that, instead I would be asking yourself, what 'how' exists for why humans either do or don't. There's frustration when we're wrong and we are tempted to take concrete views over more nuanced views to cope with that frustration up until the positive/negative feedback ratio from reality becomes too distorted, however false positives and everything all the way up to a solid positive can bring just as much distortion without change, as we saw with Nazi's, which is an easy example to pull out, however in this context j recommend adding deeper perspectives.

 

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

It's just they are so deluded it takes patience for a more aware being to be able to relate to them in their fantasy world. Was this what you meant @Leo Gurain so many words? This is my interpretation and I could be wrong.

Much of success depends upon playing into the illusions and fantasies that mankind doesn't even realize it has constructed.

[Breakingthewall]

Obvious. Be smart means seeing all this and surfing the wave with vision and art. When I was 20 years old I started working in restaurant and then in construction, at 20.5 years old I knew that either I did something about it or euthanasia would be the smartest option. At 25 I had my own business, at 30 I almost didn't work, I earned 8/10 thousand each month and I sailed on a sailboat in the Caribbean 6 months a year. but this was the easy part of the game. The difficult one is the emotional one, the couple, the friendship and the relationship with yourself, your ego. The only solution is neither more nor less than enlightenment. Let's see, if we are in this game, we have to play with everything, or is it that maybe there are no balls? 

those who want to be cogs in the system, good for them because to get out of the system you have to play a complicated and intuitive game, but if you are called to it, you have to play it with everything

Edited Saturday at 09:27 AM by Breakingthewall

[AION]

3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

those who want to be cogs in the system, good for them because to get out of the system you have to play a complicated and intuitive game, but if you are called to it, you have to play it with everything

I´m glad there are people who want to be cogs in the system so I don´t have to. Somebody has to flip those burgers and do other basic operations, until AI take those jobs and then people will be forced to awaken their consciousness or die trying.

I think it is useless to judge people on not awakening their consciousness since it is not a choice anyway. People who have awakened their consciousness where forced by cause-effect within the grand scheme of things.

Personally I don´t like to judge God´s creation and just accept people as they are because I know every consciousness has their own natural progression. Some people are not ready to sprout and they are not meant to be because it is part of the social ecosystem. If everybody awakened today, it would cause a ripple effect, but not in a good way.

[Breakingthewall]

19 minutes ago, AION said:

I´m glad there are people who want to be cogs in the system so I don´t have to. Somebody has to flip those burgers and do other basic operations, until AI take those jobs and then people will be forced to awaken their consciousness or die trying.

I think it is useless to judge people on not awakening their consciousness since it is not a choice anyway. People who have awakened their consciousness where forced by cause-effect within the grand scheme of things.

Personally I don´t like to judge God´s creation and just accept people as they are because I know every consciousness has their own natural progression. Some people are not ready to sprout and they are not meant to be because it is part of the social ecosystem. If everybody awakened today, it would cause a ripple effect, but not in a good way.

 agree 100%

[Schizophonia]

Lol, this is really nonsense. Everyone is rational and does what is best for their survival with a more or less significant neurotic, psychotic, phobic and in general"neuratypical" bias.

20 hours ago, Scholar said:

 

Your mind will not allow you to see how depraved, evil and selfish everyone around you is, because if it did, you would go mad, and then you would be killed, imprisoned or shunned to such a degree you would be a social outcast for the rest of your life.

All of this is deep neurosis.

Edited Saturday at 10:12 AM by Schizophonia

[Ishanga]

8 hours ago, sholomar said:

When were they ever not behaving this way in the evolutionary history of our species? Who's to say what a person "should" behave like? Isn't it better to have freedom to express oneself than say be caught under an autocratic dystopian society where even facial expressions and emotional reactions are controlled by the state? Didn't we create a society so people could do exactly what they are doing today... finding their own path through life their own way?  Do you think people should be socially conditioned to be polite and selfless and disregard their genetic nature?  That takes control over people. What level of control we decide to implement over a society and human behavior will always be the subject open for debate depending on who you are talking too. Who decides what behavior is "correct" will tend to always change and you will never have a society that pleases everyone, nor can you expect people to simply "do the right thing" without rules telling them what "the right thing" actually is. If the society can please the majority while progressing our scientific understanding of this reality while generally providing people with a safe place to "find themselves" (as opposed to being drones in some autocratic collective) I would consider that a success.

 

 

Uh No.. If what You say is the way it should be, then no Laws would exist, ppl should be free to steal, rape, plunder and do whatever to You, Your loved ones and property right??

Its just basic to want things to go smoothly is it not, cutting me off in traffic is that doing just that, or is it being concerned about Your own needs and not anyone elses? 

When You start to use this word 'Freedom" it is not what most ppl think it too mean, its not about total and complete freedom to do whatever, since we are living with others there has to be mutual respect, this is not the case lots of the time, their unconsciousness is very high so they don't respect even themselves, so how to respect another...

[Breakingthewall]

It is essential to understand the inside of people. The normal thing is that they are directed by fear, this is normal. Genetically we have implanted the absolute need for acceptance in the tribe. Around this, personality grows, and it is normally something twisted, neurotic and full of lies in order to maintain a stable structure.

The first thing is to recognize those patterns in yourself and face your fear and overcome it, aligning your psychological pattern with your absolute essence. The second thing is to try to find people with the greatest nobility possible. They don't have to be spiritual people, but it is something that is detected and demonstrated in behavior, fidelity to oneself, truthfulness.

[Scholar]

12 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

It is essential to understand the inside of people. The normal thing is that they are directed by fear, this is normal. Genetically we have implanted the absolute need for acceptance in the tribe. Around this, personality grows, and it is normally something twisted, neurotic and full of lies in order to maintain a stable structure.

The first thing is to recognize those patterns in yourself and face your fear and overcome it, aligning your psychological pattern with your absolute essence. The second thing is to try to find people with the greatest nobility possible. They don't have to be spiritual people, but it is something that is detected and demonstrated in behavior, fidelity to oneself, truthfulness.

Yes, nobility is essential. It's strange how the mind has a sense of this.

[Nivsch]

You can join or create sub or micro groups of 2-3 people even who are like you, and smoothly fulfill both goals in that way.

Edited Sunday at 03:33 PM by Nivsch

[gettoefl]

On 06/12/2024 at 1:43 PM, Scholar said:

 

Your mind will not allow you to see how depraved, evil and selfish everyone around you is, because if it did, you would go mad, and then you would be killed, imprisoned or shunned to such a degree you would be a social outcast for the rest of your life.

It's not their evil, it's mine

They are doing my express bidding

else watch out or all hell will have to break lose