No Free Will?

[TruthSeeker]

My answers are in bold

@TruthSeeker  I was in a mental hospital for some time due to some panic attacks and other some psychotic episode. I meet people there that made me change my opinion about a guy who murder, rape or did some other bad thing, I really now think that they are not guilty really. hehehe... 

Same thing about people who commit suicide.

One of the guys I met, he told me, he had problems with violence. When something happened inside of him, he got so angry he couldn't stop and he could kill someone when that happened.

That's not his will to do it, there's something on the environment, on the way they were educated, etc that makes them act that way. You say something about that.

I used to think like you before, that everything that they say (I heard it mostly from psychologists and psychiatric doctors) that a rapist or murdered is not really guilty and I though "bullshit", he must go to jail.

Basically I've repeated this many times but Ill say it again. Every person's freewill is limited to certain cases...it could be that this guy who got so angry didn't have free will to do CERTAIN things but there for sure were things that he could have chosen to do or not to do. Each person is different each person has a certain POINT that they are struggling with..anything above that point is out of their free will and anything below that point is also out of their free will...only the things that lie within that point are in their free will.

 

Believe me that this is not about wanting not to take responsibility and wanting to do bad things so we are not guilty. Nothing farther from the truth. But think about this, when someones commits a murder, he goes to jail and if he makes crazy things they send him to solitary confinement. 
It is proved that people in isolation go crazier, we as human beings need interaction with other to be sane mentally.

Now I think that people need to be treated, in jail they get worse. 

I'm not trying to convince you about free will, just my point of view. I am always open to any new idea so, maybe I can be wrong.

Its wrong because its black and white thinking. There is free will or there isnt. Its not black and white...there are certain decisions that are within our free will ND CERTAIN THINGS that are out of our free will. 

 

 

[TruthSeeker]

Heres a metaphor to help explain my point...

Remember how old wars used to be fought...where 1000's of people from one country go head to head with thousands of people from another country with swords and spheres etc...

Imagine two countries in a battle. There is a limited area that constitutes the battle front - ( i.e.  where the battle takes place). The majority of the territory of each country is behind the front, and is not, at that point, involved in the battle. Likewise, the "battle" within each person. 

Meaning...we each have a certain battle front....somethings are just not in the battlefront in our lives (like for example for that angry one that one of you guys mentioned...for him, lets say to punch out a certain guy when he got angry was not in his battle front...BUT there were somethings that were in his battle front, like how many times should he punch the guy...could be the fifth or sixth punch he could have done without...so by that punch he now makes a freewill choice of whether he should keep going...(that was just an example))

 

 

 

 

[Siman]

@TruthSeeker I struggled with this no free will issue as well. The reason i started training awareness was because i thought it would be kind of like the pause i needed before acting automatically. I think now there is no free will, but i still find it kind of hard to grasp.

I really love a Carl Sagan quote: "If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you first need to invent the universe." The same you could say about your thoughts which seem to trigger your actions. A thought is the product of not just your experiences, but also those of your forefathers and everything that happened on earth AND in the complete universe. 

Personally i am also interested in creativity, which is seems sometimes like magic, but in the end it is just remixing the stuff which is already there and giving it a personal spin. Stil magical, but not magic, i guess.

 

Edited February 15, 2016 by Siman

[Truth]

3 hours ago, TruthSeeker said:

 

Sorry I don't understand what your saying or what your trying to say or what you mean or what you mean to say. Care to explain more or say it different words? If not I'm still waiting for someone to to explain to me!

Thank you!

 

 

Do you actually sit down and meditate and contemplate very honestly? Because anything we say to each other the ego just tries to find justifications to serve it's own reality (yes including mine), so to accept any ideas that we tell you doesn't change your view if you've never seen through the illusion of self, the person whose questioned the assumptions they've made about reality and their beliefs (there is no self/ego and our choices) is the difference between finding truth and not and also the difference between what's true about our perspectives (personal biases) and what's actually true in reality.

[jjer94]

@TruthSeeker

Quote

My mind makes the free willed choice and is followed by some sort of action with my legs arms etc

You say your mind is the entity that has will. What or where is the mind in your direct experience? Don't tell me that the mind is your collection of thoughts or your brain or any of that crap. Actually look in your experience. What's actually there?

Let me repeat this as a hint: Look in your experience. Do you see anything other than thinking, seeing, feeling, touching, tasting? 

This is my last post on the matter, because you're going to try to counter what I say with an argument. I'm not here to argue. I'm just urging you to verify free will in your direct experience. But if you refuse to look closely and instead want to continue believing in it, go ahead. 

[AlexB]

Immagine asking an enlightenment person "who do you think you are?!" and they would tell you nobody really believing it, that would be pretty funny ahahahah

It's interesting how everybody wants to be somebody saying "you know who I am?!" and here we are trying to crush our ego everyday to be able to not be nobody

[Spider Jerusalem]

2 hours ago, jjer94 said:

@TruthSeeker

You say your mind is the entity that has will. What or where is the mind in your direct experience? Don't tell me that the mind is your collection of thoughts or your brain or any of that crap. Actually look in your experience. What's actually there?

@TruthSeeker Just to add to this, maybe this quote from Open Secret will help:

Quote

 

The question whether "X" is bound or free - in jargon, "ignorant" or "enlightened" - and the question whether "X" is determined on indetermined - in jargon, "predestined" or has "free will" - are identical.

Neither is a question at all. Their premises being false, neither question could arise.

There is no "X," no entity to which either condition could be applied - either physically or metaphysically, either in daily life or in mind.

 

So unless you can find an entity "X," you can't invalidate the above argument.

Of course, if you imagine there is an entity "X," then you can also imagine that entity "X" has free will. But imagining "X" and then assigning "it" free will seems pointless and futile.

[Guest Kingkong123]

21 hours ago, TruthSeeker said:

I have no idea what you mean by that...

 

If any one has an answer that would be helpful....Thank you

I just can't grasp the idea that I don't have free will.

Doest that mean we are not responsible for our actions? If someone shoots someone. Well it's not his fault...he didn't have free will...he didn't choose to do it.

If I see an old lady carrying 20 grocery bags up the stairs and I ignore her. Did I not have the choice to help her or not. At that moment of me standing there watching her...don't i have the choice to say "hello miss can I help you" or not.

In that dumb article you attached he spoke about a case of which ice cream to choose...and proved from there that theres no free will. Well I too agree that in THAT case theres no free will. Free will is only in a case where the decision is actually difficult for you. Meaning for example, most people don't have an internal battle of whether they should blow up a city or a school (some people unfortunately DO have that struggle). Do for most people its NOT a freewill decision whether to blow up a city or a school. What Im trying to say is that Free will lies where the decision is actually difficult for you to make and you have a force inside you pulling you to do the opposite.  For example in the book 7 habbits of highly effective people he talks a lot about how we choose our perspective on the events that happen in our life. For example, most people are sad if its raining outside. He talks about how circumstances dont make happyness rather we choose how we react to events and that decides our mindset. But thats a freewill choice and how to react to certain events...We can choose to be negative or choose to see the positive aspects of what happened. (That was just an example).

Again to summarize. There IS free will. Its just only in a very narrow range of cases and that narrow range of cases is different for every person and even within the same person can change and he grows and develops. For example, for years it could be difficult for a person of whether he should eat a certain not healthy food. Every time its a struggle and he has to make a Freewill choice whether to eat it or not and usually fails. But then he watches Leos health videos and it inspired in and the next day he DECIDED not to eat that thing. It was still hard for him and still a struggle but he overcame and used his free will. After months and months and years and years of not eating that thing. Its no longer a challenge for him not to eat that thing. He now grew and overcame that challenge and now to not eat that thing is no longer FOR HIM a free will decision. Now he has other things in his life that he can make freewill decisions on. Should he focus more on giving his woman pleasure in bed or just focus on busting his load. Thats a free will decision for most people. Because its difficult. Now for some people who have worked on themselves...so even THAT is no longer in the range of there freewill and they are above that. 

Meaning he all have a FREE WILL POINT thats on this meter. This point is always moving based on our actions. Anyting below the point or anything above that point is NOT a free will decision (i.e. choosing an ice cream flavor or blowing up america is not a FREEWILL choice for most of us hopefully)...but for each person that point is at a different spot on that meter and that point moves up when he practices his free will properly and those things are no longer a struggle for him.

Ok 

 

 

 

This, while maybe theoretically true, is for all intents and purposes irrelevant. This hair-splitting bullshit is in no way helpful. If you live your life based on that that u may as well jump off a cliff because it all ultimately is meaningless. This scenario is analogous to

[Guest Kingkong123]

I never understood this "problem"... How does it affect anyone from a pragmatic standpoint? Are we not just having a intellectual/philosophical pissing contest? Does it make a difference to the layman whether microscopic physics is deterministic or not?

[Leo Gura]

13 hours ago, TruthSeeker said:

Let me summarize what Leo said.

I asked "Whats the basis for there not being free will"

He said "Well buddy you don't exist so obviously theres no such thing as free will"

 

Ok lets assume its true that we don't exist and the whole universe (including "us") is really this one big unity that were all apart of and "we" don't really exist and enlightenment is just realizing that etc etc.

Lets say thats true. Now, for the man who gave a whole video about his Love of paradoxes and how theres many of them in the world and how he's fascinated by them etc etc. (and by the same man who gave a video of Openmindedness) Im surprised he's not even open to the possibility that Free will exists. Maybe thats just one of the paradoxes of the world, that even though we don't exist and nothing really exists (like literally nothing) its all this big oneness...but even so, theres free will. Just because you don't want to accept that paradox doesn't mean its not true. This would be THEE paradox. Could be our minds are too small to understand how that can be but just because our minds are to small to understand how we cant exist but even so theres free will...doesn't make it not true.

Listen I'm not saying Im right. I just trying to look at both sides the the question. 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's a paradox for ya...

You actually DO exist (as Nothingness) and you ARE the source and creator of all reality, so in this sense you control and will everything into being!

Of course, this is a very different "YOU" that we're talking about than the present you you believe you are. We are now talking about you as God. And "God's" will is a very different sort of thing than your personal will (which is basically just monkey mind imitating God).

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Hellsgunz100 said:

I never understood this "problem"... How does it affect anyone from a pragmatic standpoint? Are we not just having a intellectual/philosophical pissing contest? Does it make a difference to the layman whether microscopic physics is deterministic or not?

It makes a huge difference if you actually believe you have any control over reality. If you do, from this one belief comes all your emotional suffering in life. The next time you experience a sharp pain or disappointment or fear about the future of your life, remind yourself that you have no control over it and notice how differently you relate to the pain or fear than if you believed you did have control over it.

Believing you have control over something which you actually have no control over is literally insane. And it's ruining your life.

[TruthSeeker]

 

Quote

 

Here's a paradox for ya...

You actually DO exist (as Nothingness) and you ARE the source and creator of all reality, so in this sense you control and will everything into being!

Of course, this is a very different "YOU" that we're talking about than the present you you believe you are. We are now talking about you as God. And "God's" will is a very different sort of thing than your personal will (which is basically just monkey mind).

 

Cool...thanks for answering!

You know about "God's" will? Please share! @Leo Gura

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

As far as I can see, the only true free will that we have is to break free of the chains of karma.

But then again, who says that is "your" free will? Most of us don't know the path to enlightenment until we stumble across an insight which lights the path, and then manage to look back at all the other insights which led you to that point. That insight isn't actually yours...

Edited February 16, 2016 by tryingforfreedom

[Em_RZ]

There is no free will, and still there are, our "heart" guides us through life, and everything is governed by it.. but we can't decide the direction of it, it guides us with a intuitive sense of what to do. What I have realised is that suffering is to fight against the way of the "heart", and peace is a acceptance of it. Because the nature of "heart" just is. And that's why we will get the same lessons over and over again, until we can be with it in surrender. That's what they call Karma. I choose the word "heart"because it's the only word that comes close to the concept of no free will/free will, in my experience.

[30secs]

There's no free will in the sense that our self-image is just a perspective. We thought we have a self-image or ego"the you" but if you think close enough there wasn't. Your consciousness is the result of high and very deeply complex physics that can think he/she has spirit inside. Leo also proven on his exercise free will video that you have no control of your thought. It seems you have free will in the surface but if you are curious enough to find the self you got a surprise. So you think you can choose things ? yes of course in a very simple way of thinking, but no! in a very deep context. Gonna drink beer right now than cola!

[Rickard]

15 hours ago, Makis said:

No, that's the crucial point. In enlightenment it is realized, that there is no me. The paradox and totally irrational thing is, that perception nevertheless continues. This can not be understood. Period. There's no chance to understand it. 

So we exist after all then, as perception...

[Rickard]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It makes a huge difference if you actually believe you have any control over reality. If you do, from this one belief comes all your emotional suffering in life. The next time you experience a sharp pain or disappointment or fear about the future of your life, remind yourself that you have no control over it and notice how differently you relate to the pain or fear than if you believed you did have control over it.

Believing you have control over something which you actually have no control over is literally insane. And it's ruining your life.

We can't control everything. But if I believe I have no control at all over myself and my reality there is no point in doing anything. Why work on my personal development if I think it makes no difference? Why start a business if I have no control over it? Why try to change my life? I can just as well give up then. And the result will be depression and suffering.

[Truth]

5 minutes ago, Rickard said:

We can't control everything. But if I believe I have no control at all over myself and my reality there is no point in doing anything. Why work on my personal development if I think it makes no difference? Why start a business if I have no control over it? Why try to change my life? I can just as well give up then. And the result will be depression and suffering.

That's an egoic reaction, no ego likes hearing it doesn't have control, I didn't like hearing this, but the ego's control that it thinks it has is actually the cause of suffering, because you believe you have control, but you actually don't and you suffer because of that.

The problem is the ego likes to have control, it likes to have a purpose, it loves chasing after things, and you take that away, the ego feels useless, hence the egoic reaction. You can still go after these things, but your relationship to the suffering and pain you feel trying to control everything can be taken away.

[Rickard]

3 minutes ago, Truth said:

That's an egoic reaction, no ego likes hearing it doesn't have control, I didn't like hearing this, but the ego's control that it thinks it has is actually the cause of suffering, because you believe you have control, but you actually don't and you suffer because of that.

The problem is the ego likes to have control, it likes to have a purpose, it loves chasing after things, and you take that away, the ego feels useless, hence the egoic reaction. You can still go after these things, but your relationship to the suffering and pain you feel trying to control everything can be taken away.

"trying to control everything" ??

I did not say that, on the contrary, I specificly said we can NOT control everything. But if we have no control at all, there is no meaning in trying to achieve things in life.

[Truth]

Just now, Rickard said:

"trying to control everything" ??

I did not say that, on the contrary, I specificly said we can NOT control everything. But if we have no control at all, there is no meaning in trying to achieve things in life.

Yes that's true. but there's a saying Leo talks about "if you think you're right, You're right, and if you think your wrong you're also right." Purpose and meaning only exists in the mind.

"It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy, If whatever you feel your purpose is in life, is what it is, you make your purpose. So that means, if you're a nihilist and you think that there is no purpose and that life is pointless, then that's what it is for you. And you will be right in that.And if you think your purpose is to go out there and to do something, to raise a family, go out and build a business, make contribution, whatever, that will be your purpose and that's pretty much the end of it." - Leo