No Free Will?

[TruthSeeker]

57 minutes ago, vizual said:

Now if you say, yes but I feel my ego is real therefor I have free will. In a way you are right, within the illusion of ego you have free will. In the eyes of Truth, there is no one who can have free will since no one exists.

If I shoot someone in the head between the eyes in cold blood murder (a close family member of yours that you love)...and we're calling that (the person dying with the bullet) an illusion because Quote: "no one exists", then what I'm saying is: I guess your right. Under the illusion of self...I have free will. In the "reality" of this illusion that we're in and the illusion that we perceive "self", in that "reality" we have free will. Meaning relative to the illusion of self and reality, we have free will. If in "Truth" that means we don't have free will...fine Ill accept that...(I don't really see the practical difference of accepting that.) But just remember that I can easily go up to your close family member and kill her because hey its all just an illusion and no one exists. In as much as you would be against me killing your close family member with a gun is as much as I believe in free will.

 

Edited February 18, 2016 by TruthSeeker

[jjer94]

@TruthSeeker

Quote

In the "reality" of this illusion that we're in and the illusion that we perceive "self", in that "reality" we have free will. Meaning relative to the illusion of self and reality, we have free will.

I'm not sure you understand the definition of illusion.

An illusion is something that appears to exist, but actually doesn't. There is no "reality of an illusion." Self and free will are illusions, meaning they don't actually exist in reality. Like Santa Clause. They don't exist, no matter how much they appear to exist. You can confirm this in your direct experience.

[TruthSeeker]

15 minutes ago, jjer94 said:

@TruthSeeker

I'm not sure you understand the definition of illusion.

An illusion is something that appears to exist, but actually doesn't. There is no "reality of an illusion." Self and free will are illusions, meaning they don't actually exist in reality. Like Santa Clause. They don't exist, no matter how much they appear to exist. You can confirm this in your direct experience.

So great, you wouldn't mind me killing your mom. Great. She doesn't exist...she's just an illusion like santa claus. Whats her address and work schedule?

I mean I know it appears as if she exists buddy but you know she actually doesn't. How would you like me to kill her?

Once she's dead, you will be able yo confirm with your direct experience that she never existed.

Edited February 18, 2016 by TruthSeeker

[jjer94]

11 minutes ago, TruthSeeker said:

So great, you wouldn't mind me killing your mom. Great. She doesn't exist...she's just an illusion like santa claus. Whats her address and work schedule?

I mean I know it appears as if she exists buddy but you know she actually doesn't. How would you like me to kill her?

Once she's dead, you will be able yo confirm with your direct experience that she never existed.

  There is no "Mom" for you to kill. Surely there's an animated body that is labelled as "Mom," but "Mom" herself doesn't exist. 

Just as I can say that there are fingers typing these words right now, but nobody's typing them. All there is in "my" experience are sense perceptions and sentience. Any "I" entity comes from thought, but that's just a sense perception, so in reality there is no "I" entity. There's only a puppet without a puppeteer. I won't even bother saying that you can confirm that in your direct experience... 

[TruthSeeker]

Ok so whats her address? The woman who's vagina you came out of. She will be dead by the morning...but its ok you or her don't exist. 

 

[TruthSeeker]

Just because you cant see something doesn't mean its not there.

[Leo Gura]

@TruthSeeker You're conflating the human body with the self. The human body exists. And you can of course kill it. And I'm sure @jjer94 would be sad to see his Mom's body go. But this is all moot because what his Mom really is is not the human body, but the eternal empty awareness within which her body is occurring. That eternal empty awareness you cannot kill. Moreover, his Mom and you are the exactly same awareness! Both of you are Nothing.

What you're doing is akin to an insane person threatening to destroy jjer94's Mom's car, believing that in doing so he would actually kill the Mom. In reality you're not threatening Mom in any way at all when you threaten her car. Yes, the car could be destroyed, but so what? You're just confused about who she really is because you're confused about who you really are.

And, btw, it's not in good taste to threaten people's mother's bodies.

[Guest]

@Leo Gura  I think the problem is that in denying that anything "exists", we deny the suffering that unenlightened beings think they go through. Suffering may just a concept and nonexistent to the enlightened person, but that doesn't mean that to the people that aren't enlightened, that it doesn't exist. It exists in their minds, and it chains them to the material world.

To jjer94, "Mom" is just a concept, that's all. But to others, including jjer94's Mom, it isn't just a concept.

 

Of course, then you could say that nothing exist apart from you (the ego talking to me now). But that would be solipsism.

Edited February 19, 2016 by tryingforfreedom

[Leo Gura]

@tryingforfreedom I don't deny that anything really exists. I am merely pointing out that what you are is not the body/mind -- which is a verifiable fact. In the same way that when you see a rope lying on the ground at night and think it's a snake but then you realize it's just a rope after you turn the lights on. You laugh and say to yourself, "How silly I was to be afraid of a rope." The fear was definitely real. But you were afraid of a rope! And your entire life was based around the belief that ropes are dangerous snakes.

Suffering is real. It's just also unnecessary because it's based on a misinterpretation of facts.

With enlightenment work our goal is to straighten out the facts so that we stop acting based on faulty intel.

We know the shitstorm that can happen when you believe Iraq has weapons of mass destruction when it actually doesn't. The chaos in Iraq is certainly real. But it also could have been easily avoided with better intel and more self-honesty.

[Ayla]

6 hours ago, TruthSeeker said:

No water is easy...try the things I said and then come back to this thread :)...your body will will resist a lot more and you will need to exert some serious free will to overcome

Water fasting means nothing BUT water  (no food)

[TruthSeeker]

oh lol...wow...how did you do that lol

[Ayla]

@TruthSeeker my non free will did it for me.

it was the time, place, circumstances and self mastery that brought it about.

[Guest Kingkong123]

16 hours ago, jjer94 said:

1. There exists no ego to create the illusion of free will. An illusion is something that appears to be there but doesn't actually exist. The ego and free will are both illusions.

2. I'm not sure what you mean here. Belief can be powerful sometimes. You can consider the illusion of free will to be one world-wide placebo effect!

1.placebo works even if you know about it. (Ie. Even if you know its an illusion creating another.)

2.yes! I agree. All I'm saying is perhaps the ego has a purpose. One can easily use the no ego idea as an excuse to shift their life from active to passive.

[Leo Gura]

@Hellsgunz100 The egoic mind has a very important purpose: self-survival and reproduction.

In a twisted way, you have been locked in the Matrix for your own benefit. Like a child is locked in a play-pen.

[Guest Kingkong123]

14 hours ago, TruthSeeker said:

A person can spend his entire life studying the properties of water and live till 120 yrs and still not know everything about it. It could have only been created by God. Not even Google can make something like water. Here are some interesting facts about water to wet your tastebuds.

 

(Similarly...if you saw the inner workings of a wrist-watch in the desert with all the gears and twists...would you assume all those parts randomly came together...or was just there randomly ...or someone made and designed it? The eyeball is 10^100 more times complicated than water...just studying the eye alone one should think right away...someone must have designed this thing...Its too complex...insanely complex. )

 

Btw the way I think I have a solution to the whole free will debate...Ill write about it soon...

1. My waterfall argument was analogous to your watchmaker argument/logic. I was pointing out the water fall in a sense made itself. And the watch did not.

2. Also this argument is facile, because our premises are actually the same. I argue that the universe essentially made itself, you say god, because this is all "just so complicated ". In essence we are both using the same logic. If god exists then who made him? I know, I know... He's eternal, he's infinity, we are to small to understand... Which basically is what I'm saying about the universe. The universe in its entirety Is GOD, is COUNCIOUSNESS.

[Guest Kingkong123]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Hellsgunz100 The egoic mind has a very important purpose: self-survival and reproduction.

In a twisted way, you have been locked in the Matrix for your own benefit. Like a child is locked in a play-pen.

Incorrect. I am merely playing devils advocate to demonstrate precisely what you said. Some people can't handle the truth; the red pill. And they are better of without it.

[Guest Kingkong123]

51 minutes ago, Hellsgunz100 said:

Incorrect. I am merely playing devils advocate to demonstrate precisely what you said. Some people can't handle the truth; the red pill. And they are better of without it.

Furthermore, while i like your videos and material on higher counciousness, my issue with you, has always been the feeling that your try to renounce these lower counciousness states, when in actuality transcendence is what is needed. Repression creates problems. You emphasize the former at the expense of the latter, case in point being you video "30 ways society fucks you in the ass"

[Leo Gura]

@Hellsgunz100 My videos are mostly meant to play on people's emotions and persuade them into action.

A video like that is not meant to say that watching TV or getting married is wrong. It's meant to slap one in the face and say, "Hey, stupid, you're doing these dumb things without even realizing it."

And mostly what I tell people these days isn't even to stop. It's simply to be mindful of when it happens.

Like with the pickup video, most people interpreted it as me saying, "Don't do pickup" when in fact that's not what I said at all.

And also, to be honest, I am still growing and learning so my older videos do not incorporate the deeper spiritual wisdom which I've acquired in the last year and still continue to acquire.

3 years for now, everything I say will be much more refined and more nuanced and far deeper than what I currently say. The problem is, that then people will criticize me for being too airy-fairy, too idealistic, too unrelatable, too spiritual.

[Guest Kingkong123]

I see, perhaps such things seem blatantly obvious to me... I understand what you mean. And yes, we are always learning and growing. That's a joy in life. 

[Aldo Marchand]

I think that we have partial freewill at emotions and thinking.

You assume more freewill praticing things as composing a new music or writting a book.

To take control of our lifes we have to work to sit on the creator's chair instead of been mere spectators of reality.