I love how she understands!!!

[Raze]

43 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Actually they are not. Since people keep voting for neoliberalism on steroids.

Because the neoliberal system blocks true alternatives from being possible 

[Leo Gura]

25 minutes ago, Raze said:

Because the neoliberal system blocks true alternatives from being possible 

This is fundamentally wrong. That assumes that people are developed enough to transcend neoliberalism. They are not.

People complain about neoliberalism but they are not mature, developed, educated, or selfless enough to live in a non-neoliberal society.

It's like a rapist who complains about his family getting raped. But just because his family stops being raped does not change him from being a rapist and raping other families himself. The rapist is not truly against rape, he's just against rape when it hurts him, and he's pro-rape when it's him benefiting from it. So really all he is, is selfish. He has not transcended rape.

There is not going to be anything but neoliberalism for the next 100 years. Because people are not developed enough for anything higher. You can blame centrists or whoever you want, but it's not going to happen. But what could easily happen is a backslide into illiberalism and authoritarianism. The more neoliberalism is attacked, the bigger the backslide will be, because attacking neoliberalism is not a solution to transcending it. Attack and criticism doesn't actually solve any developmental problems. The issue is not a lack of criticism, the issue is a lack of development.

Edited Wednesday at 08:52 PM by Leo Gura

[Joshe]

Most Americans could care less if some politician cares about them. What the left failed at was not centering their campaign around dismantling post-truth. 

The American people hopped on the post-truth bus and they're enjoying the ride. That's why Trump won. Because the people can't discern truth from falsehood. This is nothing new. The only thing new about it was the successful attacks on truth from on high. THAT's what happened. 

How do you explain the people electing a guy when they all knew he tried to steal an election?

The answer: lies, obfuscation of truth, and falsehood.

The mechanism: a relentless assault on critical thinking and shared reality, fueled by a media landscape that rewards sensationalism over substance. Social media algorithms amplify disinformation, creating echo chambers where belief becomes fact, and fact becomes irrelevant. Politicians and oligarchs exploit this chaos, sowing confusion and mistrust to solidify power. 

The result: a population unable or unwilling to separate reality from the narratives they’re fed. Truth wasn’t just ignored, it was dismantled. And the people turned a blind eye to it. 

The point: This is the truth that should frame all analysis, because it's actually why Trump won. If everyone accepted the truth of Trump, he wouldn't stand a chance. CLEARLY! 

Edited Wednesday at 08:48 PM by Joshe

[Hardkill]

53 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Actually they are not. Since people keep voting for neoliberalism on steroids.

People do not have the intelligence nor development level to understand what neoliberalism is or how to stop it. What people really want is to personally benefit from neoliberalism. Which is why they vote for Trump.

I don't think the neoliberalism of today is the same as it was from the late 70s/early 80s to the 2010s

We are now in a new age of unchecked capitalism that involves a resurgence of a certain amount of protectionism and the rise of technofeudalism in the Western world, particularly in America.

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

I don't think the neoliberalism of today is the same as it was from the late 70s/early 80s to the 2010s

We are now in a new age of unchecked capitalism that involves a resurgence of a certain amount of protectionism and the rise of technofeudalism in the Western world, particularly in America.

It's just the natural progression of neoliberalism. Inequality gets worse and worse over time under such a system.

From Reagan to Bush to Trump. It's a natural progression.

Edited Wednesday at 08:51 PM by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's just the natural progression of neoliberalism. Inequality gets worse and worse over time under such a system.

From Reagan to Bush to Trump. It's a natural progression.

At the same time, the working class, middle class, and working poor in western societies have become increasingly angry and resentful about their financial situation and their country's economies, especially in the US.

Carter was actually the very first neoliberal US president, but Reagan really took the rise of neoliberalism into overdrive and every president after him has followed suit. Obama was the least neoliberal president we had before Biden.

Biden actually became the most left-wing president ever since LBJ in the 1960s. He really had our economy transitioning away from neoliberalism into more of a social democracy.

Now, we are really going to be in a second Gilded Age, and the working class, middle class, and working poor in western societies have become increasingly angry and resentful about their financial situation and the economies they are in. 

We probably are going to have another severe recession as bad the 2008 financial crisis or COVID-19 recession were within the next 10 years. 

I actually wouldn't be surprised if in the next 10 to 20 years, we have an economic depression that is as bad as the Long Depression during the late 1800s was or as bad as the Great Depression of the 1930s was.

Years-long violent labor strikes and historic civil unrest across the country will happen within the next 30 years.

Edited Wednesday at 09:09 PM by Hardkill

[Raze]

33 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This is fundamentally wrong. That assumes that people are developed enough to transcend neoliberalism. They are not.

People complain about neoliberalism but they are not mature, developed, educated, or selfless enough to live in a non-neoliberal society.

It's like a rapist who complains about his family getting raped. But just because his family stops being raped does not change him from being a rapist and raping other families himself. The rapist is not truly against rape, he's just against rape when it hurts him, and he's pro-rape when it's him benefiting from it. So really all he is, is selfish. He has not transcended rape.

There is not going to be anything but neoliberalism for the next 100 years. Because people are not developed enough for anything higher. You can blame centrists or whoever you want, but it's not going to happen. But what could easily happen is a backslide into illiberalism and authoritarianism. The more neoliberalism is attacked, the bigger the backslide will be, because attacking neoliberalism is not a solution to transcending it. Attack and criticism doesn't actually solve any developmental problems. The issue is not a lack of criticism, the issue is a lack of development.

This analysis assumes the responsibility for unfairness and corruption in society is on the collective development of that society, that isn’t always the case, sometimes there are power systems that can oppress the populace and morph society in ways contrary to the majorities development. 

[zazen]

@Raze Agreed. Leo is correct when he says neoliberalism is the only game in town - but it’s more so because the system is rigged to ensure that anyone who challenges it gets crushed, co-opted, or dismissed. People aren’t voting for neoliberalism because they love it - their voting within the confines of a system that only offers them neoliberalism.

Europe is proof that this isn’t about people being “undeveloped.” Europes democracies provide universal healthcare, affordable education, and safety nets that protects their citizens. The real issue isn’t that Americans or anyone else “can’t handle” a better system - in fact populism across the globe is a cry for a better system. It’s that neoliberalism sabotages their readiness for it - because it creates conditions which divides, alienates, and stresses people to the point their unable to think of anything better or where they end up choosing the wrong “solutions” in the form of a populist leader who promise change but can’t or won’t bring it.

Also, if we follow the logic of “people aren’t developed enough to transcend neoliberalism,” then why stop there? Why not extend that same argument to say democracy itself is a mistake because people aren’t “developed enough” to vote wisely? Why not hand the keys to an enlightened technocracy or the tech bros lol

The elitist attitude among the Democrat left is actually less democratic and more in line with neoliberalism itself. Even Black Lives Matter commented the following:

“Democratic Party elites and billionaire donors are attempting to manipulate Black voters by anointing Kamala Harris and an unknown vice president as the new Democratic ticket without a primary vote by the public. This blatant disregard for democratic principles is unacceptable.” - https://blacklivesmatter.com/black-lives-matter-statement-on-kamala-harris-securing-enough-delegates-to-become-democratic-nominee/

Edited Wednesday at 10:06 PM by zazen

[Hardkill]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

This is fundamentally wrong. That assumes that people are developed enough to transcend neoliberalism. They are not.

People complain about neoliberalism but they are not mature, developed, educated, or selfless enough to live in a non-neoliberal society.

It's like a rapist who complains about his family getting raped. But just because his family stops being raped does not change him from being a rapist and raping other families himself. The rapist is not truly against rape, he's just against rape when it hurts him, and he's pro-rape when it's him benefiting from it. So really all he is, is selfish. He has not transcended rape.

There is not going to be anything but neoliberalism for the next 100 years. Because people are not developed enough for anything higher. You can blame centrists or whoever you want, but it's not going to happen. But what could easily happen is a backslide into illiberalism and authoritarianism. The more neoliberalism is attacked, the bigger the backslide will be, because attacking neoliberalism is not a solution to transcending it. Attack and criticism doesn't actually solve any developmental problems. The issue is not a lack of criticism, the issue is a lack of development.

How do you know that neoliberalism will continue to dominate for the next 100 years? No order lasts forever.

Before neoliberalism, we had a New Deal type of economy during the mid-1900s. I don't think anybody could've predicted back that neoliberalism would take over by around the 1980s.

Even though the bad things that we predict to happen will probably happen in the foreseeable future, nobody can really predict what will actually happen 50 to 100 years from now. How can we even know what kind of economic order we'll be in 20 to 30 years from now?

Edited Wednesday at 10:05 PM by Hardkill

[zazen]

On 29/10/2024 at 3:47 PM, zazen said:

Saying populist grievances are manufactured actually reinforces and validates their critique of elite dismissiveness. For sure media figures and demagogues amplify and channel these grievances - but they can't amplify thin air or channel grievances that don't exist. What they install is the framework of how to interpret those grievances and direct them towards the 'wrong' solution - but they acknowledge they exist which is why they get the populist vote. The liberal world view requires believing that millions of people are simply hallucinating the worsening of their own material conditions, that is being worsened by a imperialistic corporate parasite that neoliberalism gave birth to.

Neoliberal capitalism is doing exactly what its critics have warned about - concentrating wealth while causing mass discontent that goes beyond borders and even continents. The media machine serves theses parasitic vampire elites by gas lighting the public into thinking its raining while they're being pissed on. The lived reality hugely differs to the portrayed one which is why when Trump blurts out 'fake news' so many resonate with it.

The global nature of populist movements counters the idea that these grievances are just installed and not true. How did Trump and Tucker cause farmer protests across Europe or give rise to populists in Brazil - was their a demagog conference where they taught their best tricks in demagoguery?

People are responding to conditions that transcend national boundaries, because bipartisan neoliberalism transcends boundaries to serve a transnational elite class of vultures - it hasn't worked well enough, for enough people. Young people are locked out of a housing market they're parents easily entered, student debt and health care costs are high, stagnant wages, the 2008 housing crash followed by bank bail outs, lies about war after war, poll after poll showing trust in institutions were already in the basement before Trump ever came https://news.gallup.com/poll/1597/confidence-institutions.aspx

Trump didn't create a crises of legitimacy. Western institutions have long nuked their credibility before his cheeky grin rode down that gold escalator in Trump tower, and their burying the remains of it in the rubble of Gaza. Demagogues don't create the conditions they exploit.

 

As we’re speaking about neoliberalism.

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Raze said:

This analysis assumes the responsibility for unfairness and corruption in society is on the collective development of that society.

That is the bottom line, after all the stories and excuses.

Development is what drives everything. Even the so-called corrupt elites are just products of their society and culture. A neoliberal culture breeds people like Trump, Musk, Theil, Zuckerberg, Tate, lobbists, crypto grifters, and Wall Street wolves.

Edited Wednesday at 11:38 PM by Leo Gura

[Raze]

33 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That is the bottom line, after all the stories and excuses.

Development is what drives everything. Even the so-called corrupt elites are just products of their society and culture. A neoliberal culture breeds people like Trump, Musk, Theil, Zuckerberg, Tate, lobbists, crypto grifters, and Wall Street wolves.

North Koreans and South Koreans began with the same development, but the institutions in control lead to massive societal differences 

[Hardkill]

27 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That is the bottom line, after all the stories and excuses.

Development is what drives everything. Even the so-called corrupt elites are just products of their society and culture. A neoliberal culture breeds people like Trump, Musk, Theil, Zuckerberg, Tate, lobbists, crypto grifters, and Wall Street wolves.

I hope that all of these monsters suffer in the end.

From now on, we need to celebrate every time each of these bastards fail at something or every time we see themselves tear themselves apart.

I am glad that Elon is not happy about his son being a transgender. If that brings him suffering then we should take that as a win.

Trump also needs to be trolled non-stop during his presidency until he gets so angry that he suffers a massive heart attack that ends him.

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, Raze said:

North Koreans and South Koreans began with the same development, but the institutions in control lead to massive societal differences 

Regressing backwards is always easier than inventing a better system.

To invent a system better than neoliberalism requires serious work.

Edited Thursday at 12:10 AM by Leo Gura

[Raze]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Regressing backwards is always easier than inventing a better system.

To invent a system better than neoliberalism requires serious work.

The innate issue is that there are structures in the neoliberal society that don’t have proper checks and balances so their incentive is to exploit others for their benefit at the expense of others, this is causing neoliberalism to fail which is giving rise to revolts.

[Hardkill]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Regressing backwards is always easier than inventing a better system.

To invent a system better than neoliberalism requires serious work.

We did have a better type of system during the mid 1900s. We had social democracy going on for over decades back then. 

The western European nations have a better economic system than we do.

Oh well.....

I guess everybody that's not in the top 10% is now fucked until we've all passed away.

Edited Thursday at 12:18 AM by Hardkill

[sholomar]

4 hours ago, Hardkill said:

At the same time, the working class, middle class, and working poor in western societies have become increasingly angry and resentful about their financial situation and their country's economies, especially in the US.

Carter was actually the very first neoliberal US president, but Reagan really took the rise of neoliberalism into overdrive and every president after him has followed suit. Obama was the least neoliberal president we had before Biden.

Biden actually became the most left-wing president ever since LBJ in the 1960s. He really had our economy transitioning away from neoliberalism into more of a social democracy.

Now, we are really going to be in a second Gilded Age, and the working class, middle class, and working poor in western societies have become increasingly angry and resentful about their financial situation and the economies they are in. 

We probably are going to have another severe recession as bad the 2008 financial crisis or COVID-19 recession were within the next 10 years. 

I actually wouldn't be surprised if in the next 10 to 20 years, we have an economic depression that is as bad as the Long Depression during the late 1800s was or as bad as the Great Depression of the 1930s was.

Years-long violent labor strikes and historic civil unrest across the country will happen within the next 30 years.

And you think all this would have been avoided had we voted for democrats?

[Hardkill]

26 minutes ago, sholomar said:

And you think all this would have been avoided had we voted for democrats?

Yes, I firmly believe that.

Now, 90% of the whole world is completely fucked for God knows how long!

If Washington, Lincoln, FDR, and every other great president in US history were alive to see what's happening today, they would be appalled by the threat of real tyranny facing our nation.

Edited Thursday at 01:51 AM by Hardkill

[_Archangel_]

I Think the natural progression for a capitalist system would be to add socialistic reforms like it's happening in scandinavia and to some extent to other European countries.
America needs/needed a assertive Leader with truly progressive economic position, Not too extreme to actually appeal to voters but different enough to be regarded as something new and different, a breaking point with a witty, aggressive rethoric, Republicans should be fuming when they watch him/her on tv. Harris is too "clean". Dems needs a Trump that's intelligent and actually cares for poeple.
Bernie Sanders maybe was a good candidate, but the fact that he was put to the side means Dems thought they could win while playing it safe. Now it's evident that change was needed to defeat Trumpism.

[Basman]

On 27/11/2024 at 9:38 PM, Leo Gura said:

This is fundamentally wrong. That assumes that people are developed enough to transcend neoliberalism. They are not.

People complain about neoliberalism but they are not mature, developed, educated, or selfless enough to live in a non-neoliberal society.

It's like a rapist who complains about his family getting raped. But just because his family stops being raped does not change him from being a rapist and raping other families himself. The rapist is not truly against rape, he's just against rape when it hurts him, and he's pro-rape when it's him benefiting from it. So really all he is, is selfish. He has not transcended rape.

There is not going to be anything but neoliberalism for the next 100 years. Because people are not developed enough for anything higher. You can blame centrists or whoever you want, but it's not going to happen. But what could easily happen is a backslide into illiberalism and authoritarianism. The more neoliberalism is attacked, the bigger the backslide will be, because attacking neoliberalism is not a solution to transcending it. Attack and criticism doesn't actually solve any developmental problems. The issue is not a lack of criticism, the issue is a lack of development.

Video on neoliberalism?