Logic Is Part And Parcel To Enlightenment

[Russell Parr]

9 minutes ago, Prabhaker said:

Medical science don't recognize enlightenment, they think logically, and many people suffering from 'enlightenment' are treated in mental hospitals everywhere in the world.

Science can't recognize enlightenment, because it relies on empiricism. In other words, science can't deal with concepts of the Infinite because it relies on finite evidence. 

Do you have a list of those hospitals? I need to make sure to avoid them at all costs  

[Prabhaker]

17 minutes ago, Russell Parr said:

science can't deal with concepts of the Infinite because it relies on finite evidence. 

Nobody can deal with with concepts of the infinite, unless he is suffering from some psychological disorder or use psychedelics.

[SOUL]

1 hour ago, Russell Parr said:

The type of enlightenment you seem to be a proponent of has no practical use other than when sitting at home staring at the wall. 

Do you know where you are posting? Spiritual enlightenment is about using awareness to enlighten consciousness.

This isn't philosophical enlightenment, which uses logic to enlighten understanding or scientific enlightenment which uses information to enlightenment knowledge

Sure, the spiritual enlightening of consciousness can bring understanding and knowledge of ourselves but that is not it's primary impact, it brings fulfillment.

Spiritually enlightening consciousness influences every facet of life through bringing fulfillment and is one of the most practical exercises a person can have.

Awakening and enlightening provides a well being fulfilling our experience in life that transcends knowledge and understanding, even of ourselves.

Spirituality may involve finding ideals and purpose for someone but without awakening and enlightening of consciousness it's just an ideology in the mind that doesn't fulfill.

There is no spiritual enlightenment other than being present in the moment, being aware of being aware, and no amount of logic can replace that.

That's what spiritual enlightenment is and merging it with every day life, not just in meditation, is the task of one who seeks this for their own experience and what constitutes living an awakened life.

Logic doesn't provide that and has actually proven to be a hindrance to it as people chase ideas and concepts around their mind so are distracted from just being present in the moment.

If you ever awaken the impacts of enlightenment will be revealed in your consciousness.

[Dodo]

2 minutes ago, unknownworld said:

@Russell Parr Thank you for posting this! I agree with you on most points. Logic and critical thinking are essential to understanding the nature of reality on a conceptual level. Without a solid conceptual understanding, one may fall into many traps. I see way too many people here who don't have a solid conceptual understanding who are stuck in loops do to their ignorance. The worst of all, is preexisting false beliefs that will never allow you to get a taste of the truth.

For an awakened being, mind becomes a very useful tool. 

Enlightnment itself is not some magical event. All it is, is seeing through the illusion and understanding who you really are. When you do, psychological suffering ends. It is the end of suffering. 

I like when people say end of psychological suffering. But to me continuous pain in any form is still suffering. So let's not say it's the end of suffering aka Hell, but it's the end of the unnecessary suffering.

Here''s a picture of what suffering might look like. Of course if you're enlightened you would probably not be as scarred after the event, but during, oh man. It would be interesting if this is not suffering.  

[Dodo]

1 minute ago, unknownworld said:

A physical pain is not suffering, it is a sensation. Hence why you see monks that are able to put themselves on fire, or Jesus who had no problem getting crucified. You feel the pain, but it is not suffering. You can even learn to enjoy the pain!  

Jesus did have moment in which he was like "Wtf God why u do dis? pls lemme go" or something of this sort!

 For me being physically tortured is way worse than psychological suffering. Psychological suffering is much easier to transcend. What the superhumans do is another story. The way I use the word suffering is with the following meaning: Suffering = continuous pain

psychological suffering = continuous psychological pain

physical suffering = continuous physical pain

suffering = continuous pain

Pain in the moment happens all the time - and those on spiritual journey learn to accept and let go, not allowing it to continue and evolve into suffering.

However, if you are being tortured, you are going to experience suffering.. This is just what the word means, you are suffering. Jesus was suffering. If he wasn't suffering, it wouldn't be such a big deal that he was crucified. 

I hear this pain/suffering thing all the time, it's no good to be a parrot tho. I've learned recently to see things as they are, not as people say they are.

[WelcometoReality]

@Lenny Thank you Lenny. I bookmarked it and will read about it another day. What about Rupert Spira, he is really logical in his teachings. Is he basing it on vedanta?

@Russell Parr Yeah I see that it can be used to understand things like that which you are describing. However understanding it and realizing it is two different things. 

Understanding is mind figuring things out. Coming to conclusions and here I see logic as great tool to have.

Realizing it is when it is revealed in ones experience.

For example explaining how it is to see to a blind man. No matter how well you describe it. No matter how well he understands the concept of seeing, he will not be able to see.

 

Edited May 4, 2017 by WelcometoReality

[Russell Parr]

@WelcometoReality  Realization happens through understanding. It cannot occur without it.

[Prabhaker]

1 hour ago, Russell Parr said:

Realization happens through understanding. It cannot occur without it.

If understanding means you are trying intellectually – through logic, reason, concepts – and that’s the sure way to miss realization. 

The intellect is utilitarian. It helps while you are moving outside of your being. It is helpful as a guide in the world of the without. The moment you turn inwards it becomes useless; it is no more a guide. Then it misguides. There is a limit to the intellect... and realization can be felt only, not understood.

Intellect is superficial – so if you are trying to understand realization, you will go on missing. The first thing to be understood is that understanding is not the right direction. I am saying that if you want, you can experience realization but you cannot understand. But the mind is cunning; it goes on thinking about realization. Thinking is a very secure situation. You never go out of yourself. You go on playing with words.

Understanding transforms, but understanding comes from living life consciously. Logic can't help you, you are there to interpret it, interpretation will always be yours.  A Buddha, one who is enlightened, helps you to grow. If he talks, he talks only to help you to drop all talking. If he uses words, he uses them only to help you to become wordless. If he talks, he talks only to indicate towards silence.

So always remember, when a Buddha says anything, the container is not important at all, but the content. The word is the container and the meaning is the content. But that meaning can come to you only when you grow. Unless you taste something of buddhahood, you will not understand.

So it is not a question of knowledge; it is a question of understanding. Knowledge you can go on gathering; you need not grow. You can go on stuffing yourself with knowledge and deep down inside you will remain the same – no growth happens, no transformation happens.

If you understand, then meditation is not something to be done; it is a consequence of understanding. But if you don’t understand, then meditation has to be done, because only through meditation, by and by you will be cleansed and understanding will become possible. Understanding never comes through logic, through logic you will gather more and more information but your capacity to understand will remain same.

Either you understand – then meditation follows; or you don’t understand – then you have to meditate and understanding follows. They are interdependent.

But don’t deceive yourself, because deception is very easy. You can think, ’Yes, I understand.’ You can think that you understand, because it is very ego-enhancing to think that you understand – and so what need is there to meditate?

But if understanding really happens, then all problems disappear immediately. If problems still linger on, then you must have deceived. If anger continues to be there, if hatred continues to be there, if jealousy continues to be there, if fear continues to be there, then you have deceived yourself. Then please, start meditating. Then much cleansing has to be done.

Understanding is – a clear mirror of consciousness. Meditation is just cleaning the mirror. Understanding is the clean mirror, the cleaned mirror.

[WelcometoReality]

5 hours ago, Russell Parr said:

@WelcometoReality  Realization happens through understanding. It cannot occur without it.

You can't know if that's true. You can say that you have only experienced it that way. But you can't know if that is true for everyone else.

[Russell Parr]

 

On 5/4/2017 at 8:17 PM, Prabhaker said:

If understanding means you are trying intellectually – through logic, reason, concepts – and that’s the sure way to miss realization. 

Understanding and trying to understand are not the same thing.

If you are trying to understand, then you do not yet understand. If you are trying to realize, you have not realized. If you are trying to become enlightened, then you are not yet enlightened. But you can't understand, realize, or be enlightened without the effort to do or become so. Once the end goal is reached, trying is no longer necessary, and dropped.

As long as delusion remains, reflection and effort are necessary.

On 5/4/2017 at 8:17 PM, Prabhaker said:

Understanding transforms, but understanding comes from living life consciously. Logic can't help you, you are there to interpret it, interpretation will always be yours.  A Buddha, one who is enlightened, helps you to grow. If he talks, he talks only to help you to drop all talking. If he uses words, he uses them only to help you to become wordless. If he talks, he talks only to indicate towards silence.

"Logic can't help you." This is why I started this thread.

Logic is rather simple, really. It is the means by which validity is determined. Many people don't like logic because the use of can easily expose errors of one's own thinking and habits. Self critique makes them too uncomfortable. So what do they do? Blame logic itself! 

As far as I can tell, I don't have of an issue with the rest of what you said.

[Russell Parr]

22 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

You can't know if that's true. You can say that you have only experienced it that way. But you can't know if that is true for everyone else.

Can you provide me an example?

[Russell Parr]

7 hours ago, John Flores said:

@Russell Parr Science can't EASILY deal with concepts of the infinite. Not impossible. Eventually "infinite" will be what runs interdimensional space travel since we will know how to harness energy out of "no where" and on demand. That's an example of "sciencing" the infinite.

I should have chosen my words better. Science can deal with concepts of the infinite, but it cannot prove or validate Absolute truths because it only deals with apparent truths. "Scientific fact" really means apparent fact, because any and all scientific findings are to always remain subject to the possibility of change due to new evidence.

Absolute truths are instead purely abstract, and can only be dealt with through logical thought.

Edited May 6, 2017 by Russell Parr

[WelcometoReality]

On 2017-05-06 at 4:44 AM, Russell Parr said:

Can you provide me an example?

A female baseball player came to Adyashanti. During a baseball match she had "disappeared". Realized the nature of no self. She had no spiritual background so she had no understanding of what happened before the realization.

[Visitor]

Enlightenment is a knowing what is true. The knowing IS as much as truth IS. The knowing transcends any language. As soon as language is used the knowing just becomes a story. Truth, needs no story to be known. Discernment by the enlightened is just knowing, without explanation or understanding of any logical processes. That is why the word faith is commonly associated with the knowing.

Having logical knowledge about enlightenment is watered down by language and logic. No matter how well I write this explanation, it will not replace the unexplainable knowing of what is true.

[Russell Parr]

8 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

A female baseball player came to Adyashanti. During a baseball match she had "disappeared". Realized the nature of no self. She had no spiritual background so she had no understanding of what happened before the realization.

Would you say that she is enlightened? Or that she merely had an enlightening experience? One may experience samadhi or satori and one time or another, at will or at random, through meditation or 5-meo, yet still remain overall unenlightened.

To me, enlightenment is both the understanding and the realization. What she is missing is the understanding, which is why she went to Adyashanti.

[Russell Parr]

8 hours ago, Visitor said:

Discernment by the enlightened is just knowing, without explanation or understanding of any logical processes.

Discernment is not knowing; it is perceiving and distinguishing. Moreover, proper discernment is logical.

8 hours ago, Visitor said:

Having logical knowledge about enlightenment is watered down by language and logic. No matter how well I write this explanation, it will not replace the unexplainable knowing of what is true.

Nonsense. Having logical knowledge is not "watered down" by logic. Knowledge is either logical or it isn't. Illogical knowledge is false knowledge. What you mean to say is no matter how well you explain yourself, only those capable of understanding will understand.

This idea you are promoting is dangerous. It encourages mindlessness; as if the thoughts, words, understanding, and explanations of the enlightened are not perfect expressions of reality.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Russell Parr

[Natasha]

3 hours ago, Russell Parr said:

To me, enlightenment is both the understanding and the realization. 

According to this definition, I'd be enlightened 

Edited May 7, 2017 by Natasha

[Russell Parr]

Enlightenment is like riding a bike. After you get it, you've got it. If you ride every day, it becomes as easy as walking. If you drop it for a while, your skills become rusty. 

[Prabhaker]

4 hours ago, Russell Parr said:

 If you drop it for a while, your skills become rusty. 

Who told you ? What skills ?

Edited May 7, 2017 by Prabhaker

[Russell Parr]

@Prabhaker "Who told you ?" 
Experience.

"What skills ?"
One cannot effectively perceive or express the enlightened perspective without regularly practicing proper discernment regarding the nature of reality.