Logic Is Part And Parcel To Enlightenment

[Russell Parr]

1 hour ago, SOUL said:

Actually it is commonly held belief that things change and there are even some who think that the natural laws may not be constant eitherl.

Hmm.. but things do change.. they are in a constant state of change. What do you mean by natural laws? If natural laws are scientific, then they are always subject to change.

1 hour ago, SOUL said:

Although, it seems like you are implying that things don't exist unless conscious observation but my point was that things still exist though may not be determined unless observed.

Close. If reality is ultimately infinite, then the existence of things is an illusion caused and determined by the relativistic observations of consciousness.

In other words, "to exist" means and is synonymous with "to appear."

1 hour ago, SOUL said:

You said "created by the interaction between consciousness and its environment." and I asked what would that environment be.

It can be reached if one transcends the mind.

As long as we are speaking of consciousness, we are speaking in terms of dualism. As such, that which is not consciousness is its environment.

Ultimately there is only the Tao. All things come from the Tao and return to the Tao. The Tao is infinite, and absolute. It includes and transcends the relativistic realms of consciousness.

In enlightenment, that which is transcended is egotistical delusion. I do not accept the idea that the mind is transcended, because enlightenment is the property, and an attainment, of the mind.

57 minutes ago, SOUL said:

Amoeba?

If you would like me to concede the idea that an amoeba has a mind, that is fine with me. That is besides the point anyway.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Russell Parr

[Russell Parr]

52 minutes ago, Prabhaker said:

When Jesus said,"Seek ye first the Kingdom of God, then all else will follow" 

What is your interpretation of " then all else will follow "?

"Seek ye first the Kingdom of God, then all else will follow" Jesus is saying "First understand ultimate reality, and you will then understand all."

53 minutes ago, Prabhaker said:

How can you say ,it is a "pretty poor job" ?

Religions abound far and wide, yet have produced very few enlightened sages.

54 minutes ago, Prabhaker said:

It tells nothing about mind !

I still would like to know your answer.

[Prabhaker]

5 minutes ago, Russell Parr said:

Religions abound far and wide, yet have produced very few enlightened sages.

That's the nature of things, nobody can do better than that.

5 minutes ago, Russell Parr said:

I still would like to know your answer.

The mind is just a process. In fact, mind doesn't exist, only thoughts - thoughts moving so fast that you think and feel that something exists there in continuity. Thought exist , mind doesn't exist. Mind is just the appearance.

Just like individuals exist, crowd doesn't exist without individuals. Without thoughts mind doesn't exist, without thoughts there is only pure awareness.

[Russell Parr]

2 minutes ago, Prabhaker said:

That's the nature of things, nobody can do better than that.

Can't argue with that

3 minutes ago, Prabhaker said:

The mind is just a process. In fact, mind doesn't exist, only thoughts - thoughts moving so fast that you think and feel that something exists there in continuity. Thought exist , mind doesn't exist. Mind is just the appearance.

I agree that the mind is just a process, as well as an appearance. But it is also a thing in as far that it can be identified and demarcated from the rest of reality. Enlightenment applies to that which is capable of enlightenment, which is the mind of an astute observer.

5 minutes ago, Prabhaker said:

Just like individuals exist, crowd doesn't exist without individuals. Without thoughts mind doesn't exist, without thoughts there is only pure awareness.

Yes, and thoughts do not exist without that which causes them. Therefore thoughts are just appearances as well. Same goes for awareness.

[Prabhaker]

1 minute ago, Russell Parr said:

Yes, and thoughts do not exist without that which causes them.

Whatever causes them, thoughts exist.

[Russell Parr]

Agreed.

[SOUL]

14 minutes ago, Russell Parr said:

Hmm.. but things do change.. they are in a constant state of change.

So when you make a point of adding the word 'inherently' to 'exist' you actually aren't changing anything, you think illusion means 'does not exist'.

15 minutes ago, Russell Parr said:

If reality is ultimately infinite, then the existence of things is an illusion caused and determined by the relativistic observations of consciousness.

In other words, "to exist" means and is synonymous with "to appear."

This confirms you think illusion means 'does not exist' and no 'to exist' is not synonymous with 'to appear'.

Even if something is an illusion, which means 'not as it appears', it exists though it's not as it appears.

20 minutes ago, Russell Parr said:

If you would like me to concede the idea that an amoeba has a mind, that is fine with me. That is besides the point anyway.

It isn't beside the point, you asserted there was no awareness without a mind, I showed an example of it, it's on point with your thread topic.

This is what happens when someone attempts to achieve enlightenment with logic, it fails because it is a construct of the mind.

Transcending the mind is in part what enlightenment is comprised of.

[Natasha]

12 hours ago, Russell Parr said:

Logic is the linguistic representation of cause and effect, which is an absolute principle of reality. The enlightened mind is fully logical and unencumbered by egotism, which causes the logical processes of the mind to stutter due to a clinging to ideas, concepts, people, and things.

Be careful not to decry logic. It is an essential ingredient to enlightenment.

A friend of mine understands what enlightenment is from a logical point of veiw, yet lacks sufficient awareness to awaken. Isn't logic just a tool to help understand/explain what awareness ultimately reveals? 

[Russell Parr]

46 minutes ago, SOUL said:

So when you make a point of adding the word 'inherently' to 'exist' you actually aren't changing anything, you think illusion means 'does not exist'.

Not so.

46 minutes ago, SOUL said:

This confirms you think illusion means 'does not exist' and no 'to exist' is not synonymous with 'to appear'.

Even if something is an illusion, which means 'not as it appears', it exists though it's not as it appears.

You missed out on the context. I said "if reality is ultimate infinite." Ultimately, the existence of things is just an appearance. The existence of things is not absolute. If you want to argue that I could use better wording to explain myself, then we could go there. All of which has to do with logic, by the way.

46 minutes ago, SOUL said:

It isn't beside the point, you asserted there was no awareness without a mind, I showed an example of it, it's on point with your thread topic.

It is entirely beside the point. Whether or not a mind is required for awareness has no bearing on whether or not logic is an ingredient of enlightenment.

46 minutes ago, SOUL said:

This is what happens when someone attempts to achieve enlightenment with logic, it fails because it is a construct of the mind.

You have in no way, shape, or form debunked the fact that logic is part and parcel to enlightenment, which is the perfect understanding the absolute nature of reality, in absence of delusions regarding such.

It doesn't matter that logic is a construct of the mind. So is enlightenment!

Edited May 4, 2017 by Russell Parr

[Russell Parr]

5 minutes ago, Natasha said:

A friend of mine understands what enlightenment is from a logical point of veiw, yet lacks sufficient awareness to awaken. Isn't logic just a tool to help understand/explain what awareness ultimately reveals? 

You can't be aware of ultimate reality without understanding it.

[Natasha]

3 minutes ago, Russell Parr said:

You can't be aware of ultimate reality without understanding it.

What about animls? Aren't they naturally enlightened?

[Russell Parr]

2 minutes ago, Natasha said:

What about animls? Aren't they naturally enlightened?

No. Enlightenment refers to the transcendence of delusion, and animals are not delusional to begin with.

[Prabhaker]

6 minutes ago, Russell Parr said:

Enlightenment refers to the transcendence of delusion

There is no logical or scientific evidence that enlightenment happens in human beings, how can you prove logically that enlightenment is  "transcendence of delusion" ?

[Russell Parr]

@Prabhaker The path to enlightenment is embarked by those that wish to overcome the suffering caused by misunderstandings of reality. Do you not agree?

[Prabhaker]

1 minute ago, Russell Parr said:

The path to enlightenment is embarked by those that wish to overcome the suffering caused by misunderstandings of reality. Do you not agree?

No, path of enlightenment results in sufferings, you can see whole history, enlightened persons are always tortured, and die in miserable conditions.

[Russell Parr]

2 minutes ago, Prabhaker said:

No, path of enlightenment results in sufferings, you can see whole history, enlightened persons are always tortured, and die in miserable conditions.

Well sure, the enlightened often suffer at the hands of those that they offend, but they transcend the suffering caused by misunderstandings of God. To suffer in response to one's misunderstandings and delusions is to suffer for God. Only those that are intuitive to spiritual wisdom are capable of such suffering.

The enlightened do not and cannot transcend normal physical suffering.

[Natasha]

3 minutes ago, Russell Parr said:

@Prabhaker The path to enlightenment is embarked by those that wish to overcome the suffering caused by misunderstandings of reality. Do you not agree?

By those who are ready to completely surrender to the Truth. Suffering can serve as a powerful trigger to get one ready, though.

[Prabhaker]

2 minutes ago, Russell Parr said:

but they transcend the suffering caused by misunderstandings of God

No they can't, it is not humanly possible. God, enlightenment are just a fiction.

[Prabhaker]

6 minutes ago, Russell Parr said:

To suffer in response to one's misunderstandings and delusions is to suffer for God.

There is no God in the first place, you talk about logic, and talk so illogically ! What is God ?

[SOUL]

1 hour ago, Russell Parr said:

It doesn't matter that logic is a construct of the mind. So is enlightenment!

Juggling ideas and concepts in paradigms of the mind isn't enlightenment.

Illuminating awareness in the present moment is enlightenment.

Enjoy your logic, I'll enjoy being aware now.