Leo Gura’s critique of whatifalthist

[Enigma777]

I saw @Leo Gura’s blog post about the YouTube channel “whatifalthist”, and since I think it raises crucial issues at many levels, I thought a more extensive conversation on the subject was necessary. 

First of all, taking into consideration the spiritual insights that he brings to the table, to simply dismiss him as a blue stage reactionary seems like an oversimplification. Sure, his videos are to a certain degree corrupted by a stream of stereotypical and immature right wing ideology but I think this is fundamentally rooted in the complete failure of the modern political zeitgeist, based on leftist politics, to bring any sort of higher order meaning to the collective. Meaning that you don’t have to be a radical conservative ideologue to be dissatisfied with the modern leftist discourse; over the years, we have seen people who identified with the left wing such as Joe Rogan(who, as he stated himself, would’ve been a Bernie Sanders voter a few years back) and Russel Brand suddenly shift poles in terms of their political identification. 

This, in my estimation, is a sort of Hegelian dynamic, the dialect between the political left and right forming a sort of pendulum where extremes are compensated by antithetical motions of the pendulum swinging in opposite directions and balancing out the collective dynamic. The ideologies of the left went too far and a natural systemic compensation arose, leading masses of people to start leaning on the opposite side of the political spectrum. 

Therefore, I think that Rudyard is less of a radical right wing ideologue(although he might advertise some radical ideas to pander to a certain audience) but simply another individual who’s dissatisfied with the hollow and spiritually emtpy doctrine of the modern left. Peterson is right to say that old institutions falling away and the West losing its identity and tradition laid the ground for the dissolution of collective identity, meaning and fundamental orientation in the world. 

And this is a problem that the left simply hasn’t solved. Now, it is a very difficult problem to solve and one I do not think figures such as Peterson are capable of solving, but I do believe that, if listened to closely, thinkers such as whatifalthist might bring something closer to a meaningful answer. 

My critique of Leo’s commentary on him is that it is overly simplistic. Again, to dismiss  Rudyard as a blue reactionary is just too easy. How would you explain the spiritual insights he clearly has? A high level of waking up but a low level of growing up? Perhaps, but in one of his videos(linked below), he mentions Ken Wilber and integral theory, showing an understanding of the developmental nature of consciousness development. Leo himself once said that Lower levels are not aware of the spiral. He might present blue stage ideas yet, he’s still aware of the spiral. How do you explain that?

See, Leo always wants to remind people of the complexity of reality, but oftentimes he himself seems to overlook it and oversimplify his arguments especially when it fits his own political biases. Leo often touches on politics, always from a left leaning perspective but he never seems to bring a higher paradigm than the modern left to the discourse. Yes, I’ve watched his videos on conscious politics and am aware of his propositions on world government and a conscious society, yet he rarely speaks from this perspective in the rest of his political opinions. 

He doesn’t seem to address major problems with the modern left such as the pervasive lack of meaning that it’s paradigm induced in society and too easily dismisses the commentaries of figures such as Peterson(which is not your average conservative or fundamentalist). 

Also, Leo is a left leaning political thinker, which is fundamentally a relativistic paradigm which offers no higher order solution to the chaos of modernity. Yet, he’s also aware of fundamental spiritual principles underlying the structure reality and by extension, human existence, yet he rarely mentions the role of these principles as far as politics and government goes. A relativistic society is simply not compatible with an awareness of these higher principles.

In conclusion, here’s a whatifalthist video that’s pretty solid(although admittedly somewhat corrupted by a certain level of modern day right wing ideology): 

Watch this video and tell me he’s just another blue level thinker. You simply cannot do that, this is a gross oversimplification. He brings solid point there and even though I might disagree with the use of the term “right” in this context, to conceptualize of a society that honours timeless transcendent principles and traditional moral values in the purpose of reestablishing meaning and order seems to be a hell of a lot better than what we have now as a society and culture. Yes, your spirituality can be tainted by right or left wing biases, but it’s still higher in paradigm than the modern secular left. 

[Leo Gura]

18 minutes ago, Enigma777 said:

to conceptualize of a society that honours timeless transcendent principles and traditional moral values in the purpose of reestablishing meaning and order seems to be a hell of a lot better than what we have now

That's just stage Blue. They have been saying those hollow platitudes for a thousand years.

It can seems profound until you realize that in the end they end up supporting some buffoon like Bush or Trump.

Whatever nuggets of truth you will find in Whatifalthist, they only deepen the self-deception and pervertry.

It is truly hard to explain how delusional Whatifalthist is. That he mentions Ken Wilber just makes it worse.

Because that you don't end up using the complexity of reality to fool yourself into giving credit where credit is not due. You are being way too charitable to Whatifalthist.

Peterson is another great example of someone who you should be careful not to give too much credit too because in the end all his philosophy amounts to is delusional rationalization of Trump's moral and spiritual bankrupcy.

You can't claim that society is going to hell from moral and spiritual bankrupcy and then vote for Trump as the solution. This is pure nonsense. It shows you the pervertedness of all these religious moralists.

This is exactly why I talked about Whatifalthist at all. Because of how deeply it shows that self-deception runs.

His ideas are so perverted that I didn't even want to share his videos with my audience. Just watching one of his videos is to risk perversion. So watch out. I am not going to detail all the errors of it for you.

Edited November 25, 2024 by Leo Gura

[Enigma777]

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It can seems profound until you realize that in the end they end up supporting some buffoon like Bush or Trump.

Ok well then I have a simple question for you:

How do you reconcile the so called blue traditionalist perspective of transcendent principles and fundamental moral order with the turquoise conception of timeless universal principles. 

Of course, blue morality is generally rigid, dogmatic and made up of bullshit platitudes we don’t wanna hear anymore, BUT how do you explain someone like whatifalthist having genuine awareness of fundamental spiritual truths and being at a blue center of gravity? We’re not talking about a simple blue stage morality here, it’s more complex than that, how do you explain this complexity? Cuz the morality he’s proposing is not simply some blue stage rhetoric, it’s much deeper than that and I don’t know how to reconcile that with turquoise teachings. So how do you?

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Peterson is another great example of someone who you should be careful not to give too much credit too because in the end all his philosophy amounts to is delusional rationalization of Trump's moral and spiritual bankrupcy.

And btw, Peterson was critical of Trump back when it didn’t grease his pockets to praise him, so no, he’s not fundamentally a Trump apologist, he became one when it served his interests. 

Edited November 25, 2024 by Enigma777

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, Enigma777 said:

Ok well then I have a simple question for you:

How do you reconcile the so called blue traditionalist perspective of transcendent principles and fundamental moral order with the turquoise conception of timeless universal principles. 

Of course, blue morality is generally rigid, dogmatic and made up of bullshit platitudes we don’t wanna hear anymore, BUT how do you explain someone like whatifalthist having genuine awareness of fundamental spiritual truths and being at a blue center of gravity? We’re not talking about a simple blue stage morality here, it’s more complex than that, how do you explain this complexity? Cuz the morality he’s proposing is not simply some blue stage rhetoric, it’s much deeper than that and I don’t know how to reconcile that with turquoise teachings. So how do you?

It's just Blue. Has nothing to do with Turquoise. You seem to be forgetting that Blue does have valid healthy aspects to it.

Rudyard was raised in a Quaker family. So that's where his spiritual intution/wisdom is coming from. Yes, there is validity to the Quaker ethos and value system. But it is all corrupted with right-wing racist, sexist, ethnocentric, nationalist, MAGA nonsense.

Quote

And btw, Peterson was critical of Trump back when it didn’t grease his pockets to praise him, so no, he’s not fundamentally a Trump apologist, he became one when it served his interests. 

Changes nothing I said.

Edited November 25, 2024 by Leo Gura

[Staples]

Yeah this guy rubs me the wrong way too.

His channel used to make actual what if alternate history video which were interesting, but very quickly it became his trash political dumping ground.

The problem is not a lack of education or a particular point he makes, but his self-bias is out of control.

Every idea or historical fact he warps into something that's favorable to his demographic, a white conservative american young male.

He would never ever ever concede a point that's not in favor of white males and in favor of another demographic.

So when he cries about woke identity politics, hes being a hypocrite.

Edited November 26, 2024 by Staples

[The Renaissance Man]

15 hours ago, Enigma777 said:

Of course, blue morality is generally rigid, dogmatic and made up of bullshit platitudes we don’t wanna hear anymore, BUT how do you explain someone like whatifalthist having genuine awareness of fundamental spiritual truths and being at a blue center of gravity? We’re not talking about a simple blue stage morality here, it’s more complex than that, how do you explain this complexity? Cuz the morality he’s proposing is not simply some blue stage rhetoric, it’s much deeper than that and I don’t know how to reconcile that with turquoise teachings. So how do you?

Keep in mind Spiral Dynamics when applied to the individual can become very imprecise. The 9 stages of ego development are much better. 

Plus, moral development is not exactly the same as cognitive development, which is not the same as other lines of development. What does this mean? It means that even though there are correlations, it's possible to be smart yet self-deceived, to act with compassion yet be totally closed-minded, and so on.

15 hours ago, Enigma777 said:

Leo himself once said that Lower levels are not aware of the spiral.

This creates so much confusion. So if Trump were to read Spiral Dynamics tomorrow he'd become stage Yellow? Obviously not.

The key way to understand Rudyard's mind is to evaluate his level of sense-making, ego development, vertical development. The structure of his cognition, not the content.

I mean, there's plenty of people parroting spiritual teachings, that are as dumb as a brick, misunderstanding them completely, misapplying them, distorting them to justify their lies. Clear evidence that being open to spirituality alone means nothing. It's just content.

So, if his structure is one unaware of his own biases, distortions, justifications, that puts him in the conventional stages. Can be very sophisticated, smart, knowledgeable, but that's all content, that's all horizontal development. The conventional stages are prey to self-deception. That's what defines them from post-conventional (pluralist, strategist, construct-aware).

Edited November 26, 2024 by The Renaissance Man

[Rafael Thundercat]

@Leo Gura I was listen this  Whatifalthist and even followed on istagram. But very soon I saw througth him. I think the more Honest Epistemic one gets more one get this power to see througth deception. For me this power is gold. And thanks to teach it all way down in your sharings. 

[Oeaohoo]

This part of the article struck me:

Quote

Whatifalthist dropped out of college and refuses to read books written after the 1960s because he says anything written after the 1960s is too woke. […] This is why university education is important. A university doesn't just teach you how to be woke, a university teaches you academic rigor and standards. Standards like basic objectivity and how to evaluate the credibility of sources.

Most of those older books were also written by people who had degrees… Why didn’t their hallowed “university education” teach them the same standards, if that’s really all it comes down to?

No. As part of the Long March Through the Institutions, the Universities have been hijacked to indoctrinate people into New Left ideology. 

And it has nothing to do with bias or self-deception. The only difference is that this regime serves the self-interests of ethnic and sexual minorities rather than the old white male elite.

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

Why didn’t their hallowed “university education” teach them the same standards, if that’s really all it comes down to

1) Because standards evolve.

2) Historical research has evolved a lot since the 1960. History is a lot more accurate today than back then. Not even due to lack of standards, but just because historians have access to so much more data, archives, documents, cultures, etc.

3) It's actually pre-1960s history which is biased because it was written prior to the realizations of relativity which post-modernism brought to the table. You can whine about wokeness like a child, but the reality is that the relativity of post-modernism was developed precisely to combat gross ethnocentrism of people like Whatifalthist. Because ethnocentrism and nationalism makes for shitty, inaccurate, biased, corrupt history.

Without post-modernism, history turns into Whatifalthist garbage.

Edited November 27, 2024 by Leo Gura

[WritingHands]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

1) Because standards evolve.

 

[Oeaohoo]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You can whine about wokeness like a child

And you can keep pissing your pants about Trump like an infant. 

[LordFall]

5 hours ago, Oeaohoo said:

And you can keep pissing your pants about Trump like an infant. 

What is the utility of this comment? What do you hope that Leo or anybody else reading it gains from it? 

 

On 11/25/2024 at 1:58 PM, Enigma777 said:

I saw @Leo Gura’s blog post about the YouTube channel “whatifalthist”, and since I think it raises crucial issues at many levels, I thought a more extensive conversation on the subject was necessary. 

First of all, taking into consideration the spiritual insights that he brings to the table, to simply dismiss him as a blue stage reactionary seems like an oversimplification. Sure, his videos are to a certain degree corrupted by a stream of stereotypical and immature right wing ideology but I think this is fundamentally rooted in the complete failure of the modern political zeitgeist, based on leftist politics, to bring any sort of higher order meaning to the collective. Meaning that you don’t have to be a radical conservative ideologue to be dissatisfied with the modern leftist discourse; over the years, we have seen people who identified with the left wing such as Joe Rogan(who, as he stated himself, would’ve been a Bernie Sanders voter a few years back) and Russel Brand suddenly shift poles in terms of their political identification. 

Your understanding of spiral dynamics seems rudimentary, have you watched the whole series? Stage green is fundamentally a terrible stage what brings confusing to the world but it is much advanced than the ones below it. The solution is not to somehow fall back unto Stage Orange, it's to integrate it through Stage yellow understanding. 

 

On 11/25/2024 at 2:05 PM, Leo Gura said:

His ideas are so perverted that I didn't even want to share his videos with my audience. Just watching one of his videos is to risk perversion. So watch out. I am not going to detail all the errors of it for you.

Are you sure about this take? I worry about this isolationism take. I think under the right epistemological principles exposure to corruption will only ultimately make your truth stronger. I used to be a huge Tate fan as I'm quite power hungry but when the stuff on how he abused the women came out I had no choice but to repudiate him and tell everyone that mentions him about how corrupt he is. 

[Razard86]

On 11/25/2024 at 4:05 PM, Leo Gura said:

That's just stage Blue. They have been saying those hollow platitudes for a thousand years.

It can seems profound until you realize that in the end they end up supporting some buffoon like Bush or Trump.

Whatever nuggets of truth you will find in Whatifalthist, they only deepen the self-deception and pervertry.

It is truly hard to explain how delusional Whatifalthist is. That he mentions Ken Wilber just makes it worse.

Because that you don't end up using the complexity of reality to fool yourself into giving credit where credit is not due. You are being way too charitable to Whatifalthist.

Peterson is another great example of someone who you should be careful not to give too much credit too because in the end all his philosophy amounts to is delusional rationalization of Trump's moral and spiritual bankrupcy.

You can't claim that society is going to hell from moral and spiritual bankrupcy and then vote for Trump as the solution. This is pure nonsense. It shows you the pervertedness of all these religious moralists.

This is exactly why I talked about Whatifalthist at all. Because of how deeply it shows that self-deception runs.

His ideas are so perverted that I didn't even want to share his videos with my audience. Just watching one of his videos is to risk perversion. So watch out. I am not going to detail all the errors of it for you.

I've noticed you have been using the word perverted a lot recently, Any reason for using that word in place of corruption? 

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

I've noticed you have been using the word perverted a lot recently, Any reason for using that word in place of corruption? 

It's the perfect word for describing all these Trumpists.

[Oeaohoo]

3 hours ago, Razard86 said:

I've noticed you have been using the word perverted a lot recently, Any reason for using that word in place of corruption? 

It’s just another leftist inversion of reality, and a rather lame attempt to co-opt yet another meme from the Right. They do it all the time: normie, NPC, based. I remember that overgrown infant on TYT Cenk Uyghur trying to make a similar move regarding paedophilia.

Even your precious postmodernism is just a cheap rip-off of Nietzsche and Heidegger; your cultural relativism a mediocre rehashing of Spengler, Toynbee, Vico and such; the “genius” bullshit of Ken Wilber a retarded version of the Perennial Traditionalism of Frithjof Schuon and René Guénon.

Naturally, their so-called “education” would not have taught them any of this, since it is merely an education in subversion. The left have no ideas and nothing to say, and they never have. All that remains is to step over them like the parasitical maggots that they are.

”But look at our worthless, toilet paper University degrees! Remember all the hard work we did to get those… Sleeping around at degenerate parties, drinking moonshine from plastic cups… Ooh, aren’t we so intelligent?!”

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's the perfect word for describing all these Trumpists.

Meanwhile, this is the perfect description of all of you:

While they go on perverting everything you care about, they will smugly call you perverts…

[Stovo]

On 26/11/2024 at 1:54 AM, Staples said:

Yeah this guy rubs me the wrong way too.

His channel used to make actual what if alternate history video which were interesting, but very quickly it became his trash political dumping ground.

The problem is not a lack of education or a particular point he makes, but his self-bias is out of control.

Every idea or historical fact he warps into something that's favorable to his demographic, a white conservative american young male.

He would never ever ever concede a point that's not in favor of white males and in favor of another demographic.

So when he cries about woke identity politics, hes being a hypocrite.

100%

Frustratingly the more political he's gotten the more popular he's become. 

[Oeaohoo]

On 29/11/2024 at 5:22 PM, Stovo said:

Frustratingly the more political he's gotten the more popular he's become. 

Naturally.

On 25/11/2024 at 9:05 PM, Leo Gura said:

It is truly hard to explain how delusional Whatifalthist is. That he mentions Ken Wilber just makes it worse.

Ken Wilber just makes the same mistake in the opposite direction, filtering history through his progressive and egalitarian politics.