An Introduction to “Ego Development Theory” by Susanne Cook-Greuter (EDT Summary)

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

But Wilber is the lord of these stage models. His own model has something like Unitive at the top.

Don Beck even chastized Wilber for including awakening in his model.

You are more parroting Beck than Wilber. Beck, who called Trump good for America and Wilber a stage Red psychopath

He has the model with Tier 3, which to my understanding is when you are Tier 2 but you are also developing your mysticism. I have less problems with that model for a few reasons.

Firstly, his models are not based on structured empirical methods like giving sentence completion tests to people. So there is nothing to really critique about things like sampling, because there really are no such things. He is basing his models on his reading of philosophical texts, history and scientific literature.

Secondly, he has the system of "Tiers", which mark a significant disjunction between previous stages. If he wants to denote the transition of Tier 2 (high cognitive complexity) into a focus on mysticism (trans-cognitive, trans-personal) as Tier 3, that's at least more illustrative then having it all under the same umbrella of "ego development".

After all, Cook-Greuter calls the stage in question "Ego-Transcendence". It lies in the word (but not only that) that you have in large part abandoned ego development, in favor of "trans-ego" development. Now, of course even after significant ego-transcendence, there is a dialectic between ego and trans-ego development, but nevertheless, there is a significant disjunction between them.

Thirdly, it is indeed accurate to say that once you max out Tier 2, then maxing out mysticism is a "step up", which would make Tier 3 more developed. But of course, mysticism by itself is not more developed than Tier 2 (it's a different game). I think Wilber is more explicit about this than Cook-Greuter (but maybe I'm wrong).

One issue though is that it makes the model in a sense historically contigent in a discontinuous way, in that any potential development past Tier 2 that is not classifiable as mysticism will not be captured by Tier 3 and would therefore need to be amended like a patch update. It's more intuitive that you would add stages that develop later in history (and that are more cognitively complex) on the very top of the hierarchy, but this would not be the case here.

But maybe as the world develops that even lower stages could start to show discontinuity like this given enough time. Imagine a new stage popping up between Orange and Green.

Edited 14 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[Leo Gura]

16 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Secondly, he has the system of "Tiers", which mark a significant disjunction between previous stages. If he wants to denote the transition of Tier 2 (high cognitive complexity) into a focus on mysticism (trans-cognitive, trans-personal) as Tier 3, that's at least more illustrative then having it all under the same umbrella of "ego development".

Makes no sense since most mystics are not only not Tier 3 but not even Tier 2.

Placing mysticism into Tier 3 is an even bigger problem than placing awakening into Tier 2.

Look, you just gotta accept that all these models are like the Mercator projection of the Earth -- horribly warped.

Edited 16 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Carl-Richard]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Makes no sense since most mystics are not only not Tier 3 but not even Tier 2.

Placing mysticism into Tier 3 is an even bigger problem than placing awakening into Tier 2.

Mysticism ("union with God"), awakening; I treat them as the same concept, and I think Wilber does as well (not that it matters much). Tier 3 is the transition from Tier 2 without mysticism to Tier 2 with mysticism.

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said:

Tier 3 is the transition from Tier 2 without mysticism to Tier 2 with mysticism.

I don't accept these silly human constructions.

[Carl-Richard]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't accept these silly human constructions.

Not necessarily me either, but that's at least Wilber's model 

[Leo Gura]

Maybe Wilber is just a stage Red psychopath afterall 

[Carl-Richard]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Maybe Wilber is just a stage Red psychopath afterall 

My favorite stage Red psychopath 

That wig is certainly stage Red 

 

Edited 15 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[Leo Gura]

That wig is a crime against humanity.

But Ken is a genius, so I gotta let it slide.

Edited 15 hours ago by Leo Gura

[zurew]

A moderator and the administrator are exposing themselves.

The trans shadow is coming out .

 

To max out your cognitive development , wearing a wig like that is a prerequisite.

Edited 15 hours ago by zurew

[Buck Edwards]

1 hour ago, zurew said:

A moderator and the administrator are exposing themselves.

The trans shadow is coming out .

 

To max out your cognitive development , wearing a wig like that is a prerequisite.

Lol. That wig itself is a shadow. 

[Past-Philosopher-562]

@Leo Gura I'm curious about the relationship between Ego Development Theory (by Susanne Cook-Greuter) and personal challenges like addiction, low self-esteem, and financial poverty. Specifically, as individuals progress through the stages of ego development, do these issues tend to diminish or shift? Is there a connection between the stages of ego development and a reduction in financial poverty?

[Shane Hanlon]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That wig is a crime against humanity.

But Ken is a genius, so I gotta let it slide.

LOL

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Past-Philosopher-562 said:

@Leo Gura I'm curious about the relationship between Ego Development Theory (by Susanne Cook-Greuter) and personal challenges like addiction, low self-esteem, and financial poverty. Specifically, as individuals progress through the stages of ego development, do these issues tend to diminish or shift? Is there a connection between the stages of ego development and a reduction in financial poverty?

That's gonna be hard to generalize.

Genuine poverty will certainly diminish as one moves up, but don't expect much correlation beyond that.

Edited 13 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Past-Philosopher-562]

@Leo Gura I understand that individuals in the Achiever and Expert stages often develop valuable skills that align well with Stage Orange cultures, potentially improving their financial situation.

Forgive me for being too probing, but I’m curious: Given your ability to discuss complex topics and your apparent depth of understanding, how would you describe your own life now, especially considering that you seem to be beyond conventional stages as shown in your videos?

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, Past-Philosopher-562 said:

how would you describe your own life now,

That's such an open-ended question. You'd need to be more specific.

[Past-Philosopher-562]

@Leo Gura Thank you for your response!

To be more specific, I’m curious about how your personal growth through the stages of ego development has influenced areas like family relationships, decision-making, career choices, and overall well-being. For example, do you experience more ease in your relationships or feel more relaxed overall? How has your approach to procrastination, addiction, or stress changed as you've progressed through these stages?

I’d appreciate your insights on how deeper development affects everyday life in these areas.

Thanks again for your time!

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Past-Philosopher-562 said:

@Leo Gura Thank you for your response!

To be more specific, I’m curious about how your personal growth through the stages of ego development has influenced areas like family relationships, decision-making, career choices, and overall well-being. For example, do you experience more ease in your relationships or feel more relaxed overall? How has your approach to procrastination, addiction, or stress changed as you've progressed through these stages?

I’d appreciate your insights on how deeper development affects everyday life in these areas.

Thanks again for your time!

It's hard to answer that because for the last 5 years my life has been derailed by serious and worsening health problems. So most of my life is just about managing my health problems and doing what work I can in between.

Aside from that I feel very secure and basically there's not much I need from life. I mostly focus on doing artistic work that I enjoy and contemplating reality. I understand myself and reality like xray vision. Hardly anything doesn't make sense to me.

My stress is low. Procrastination is problematic due to it being hard to build up momenrum from health problems and often not feeling good. Only real addiction I have is the internet since my work revolves around it.

My life is pretty simple. It's nothing glamorous because I mostly live for the intellect and creativity. If I wanted to live a more glamorous, adventurous, busy, or luxurious life, I could, but that barely appeals to me.

As far as psychological problems I basically don't have any other than the suffering from my health.

Edited 10 hours ago by Leo Gura

[The Renaissance Man]

9 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Mysticism ("union with God"), awakening; I treat them as the same concept, and I think Wilber does as well (not that it matters much). Tier 3 is the transition from Tier 2 without mysticism to Tier 2 with mysticism.

I feel like Tier 3 would be an embodiment of mysticism. Trans-personal as a basic, normal response and interpretation in 80%+ of situations. Can you consider yourself Tier 2 if you can only think in a complex way when you're doing engineering, but in areas where you weren't instructed you were completely self-deceived?

The stage represents the standard MO of the individual. His average response in his average state. If you're a shaman but the way you treat others is Opportunist, the that's your center of gravity.

I believe Wilber's fulcrum model works this way: the mind has the potential to operate at higher stages, and it can seem as if the ego is skipping stages sometimes. But the actual ego development, its center of gravity, develops slowly, one stage at a time. Its standard MO has a lot more inertia.

And stages get closer and closer to truth. Initially authority is not questioned at all. Then you have rationality. Then you realize relativity and self-deception, and that rabbit hole goes all the way to construct awareness. But that's still not truth, and since the trend goes toward truth more and more, it can make sense to have transpersonal stages after that, as a natural continuation of deconstruction.

Edited 6 hours ago by The Renaissance Man

[The Renaissance Man]

I do have a doubt though.

In his model Wilber says how you can't skip stages. And if you don't have the cognitive structure, biologically, neurologically, you can't get to a higher stage. Just like the example of the child and the two glasses of water. He just doesn't have the brain development to recognize that's the same quantity. Was it called pre-operational? I don't remember.

But can a child, a dog, a cat, have a mystical experience? If so, Wilber's model puts "spiritual" fulcrums beyond rationality and vision-logic. How is it possible that a creature who hasn't the ability for rationality can have a spiritual experience, that in Wilber's model is a higher holon?

• Either a child, a dog or a cat can't have mystical experiences
• Or mysticism is indeed on a different scale altogether, and there's only a correlation with cognitive development with ego deconstruction

Please help me if you have answers

[QVx]

14 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Until the Strategist stage it all seems good to me, but the Ego/Constuct aware stage sounds like something she might have heard from people in a very specific niche, and doesn't do justice with the richness that such a developmental stage, or any stage, should encompass.

I actually find the construct/ego aware stage extremely relevant to my own experiences. There are only a few small parts of the unitive stage which resonate with me. Based on that, I believe I can fairly deduce my own centre of gravity within the model.

What is also fantastic about the model is that I’m able to use it to contemplate what aspects of my life are trapped in the lower stages. This has given me some great insight into where to focus my contemplation in order to grow as a person.

I do agree with @Carl-Richard that the model itself is very limited when considering it outside of the western world. As a white male based in the UK, I have found it frighteningly accurate to my own life experiences, and that of others around me.