Are you just maturing like the next 8 billions?

[Reciprocality]

The following is conditional inference

If enlightenment is phenomenological and everything phenomenological adds up to a complete compound and all things that adds up to complete compounds has a ratio to one another and natural maturity reduces the sections of the complete compound that concerns the continuous drive of the ego-construct then it follows that natural maturity is enlightenment.

I intentionally avoid defining enlightenment so that the assertion bolded above isn't tautological without the phenomenological if-statements.

 

Id be interested in a discussion on the correctness of these premises.

[Letho]

@Reciprocality Just on the spot the best way to imagine it from my perspective is X number of correlates aligning with y perception on z construct, where z here is enlightenment, y is 'ego voidness' (not necessarily what I would choose but just as an example) and X is the qualities representative of y. Imagine that for X, every quality is a part of w number of other competing qualities on a spinning wheel where each wheel goes in its own direction. Imagine that each wheel is on top of the other and is the same size (in reality though they'd be different sizes).

So if we have 10 qualities we therefore have ten wheels where changes and gains result in alterations in the direction and speed of the wheel as well as an increased territory of the highest correlate on the respective wheel compared to competing 'genes'.

As maturity, relative to your conceptualisation, increases, those ten wheels are like a combination lock to the doorway to enlightenment are going to align enough eventually said notion of enlightenment becomes an inevitability just as a toddler wobbles from bum to hand prints to knee jerks until they're able to stand up right.

The difference with the path to enlightenment is that it's not necessarily more difficult in the practical sense but that our culture generates incredible levels of competition against those correlates to knock people off their true path in service to there sociopolitical and or economic agenda in the interests of biological to the survival interests of their egoic drives. We'd have some demographics that would never learn to walk let alone properly and many others in weird styles that don't make sense if walking had just as much competition in its path towards achievement. There's no need to idolize enlightenment in anyway, doing so will keep one from it, it's very normal, straightforward and practical and, keep staying away from the worst of Netflix/analogous and you're on the right path, all you have to do now is wait for all those spinning combination wheels to finally make their 'click' and you'll be on the homestretch to realising your next paradigm.

[Reciprocality]

@Letho It appears like you smuggled in a concept of enlightenment as emerging from the spinning wheels out of nowhere though it would already be proportionate to the "ego voidness" (y) from the coupling in the argument I presented.

It also appears like you strictly define enlightenment (z) as a construct and ego voidness as not a construct, which creates a meta-perspective that is simply not warranted in a topic of the dynamic between experientially real things.

 

My argument, if correct, implies that these cultural, sociopolitical and economic agendas of our current age is significantly independent of enlightenment. Which further implies the fantastical generalisation of the "unenlightened"  masses that you are operating with from the beginning.

Is it not quite possible that the world you are seeing and paying attention to is that sub-section of it which are most aligned with your own level of maturity, that the ongoing stream of "most people are this and that way" is an externalisation of your own latent intent and behaviour?

[Letho]

@Reciprocality I didn't make the assertions you say I made. Just read over. If you still believe that, just read again. Because I didn't. Peace mate, have a great one sincerely.

[Letho]

I'll entertain your remarks out of politeness though @Reciprocality for out of very few others I appreciate your willingness to engage deeply into a subject.

Okay so your hypothesis offers a compelling conditional framework linking natural maturity to enlightenment. Let me refine my earlier response to clarify my perspective and address the critiques you've raised.

Firstly, my metaphor of spinning wheels was not intended to ‘smuggle in’ a definition of enlightenment or ego voidness but to illustrate a dynamic interplay of qualities (X), contextualized within varying degrees of alignment (Y) as one approaches a paradigmatic shift (Z). This was an attempt to conceptualize maturity as a process of alignment, where competing constructs dissolve over time, revealing an emergent clarity. However, I acknowledge that my metaphor may have oversimplified your nuanced phenomenological model, and I appreciate your critique as an opportunity to refine it.

Regarding cultural and sociopolitical influences, my intent was to suggest that these factors serve as external variables affecting the maturation process. While your argument implies that enlightenment remains independent of such influences, my position is that the interplay between internal maturation and external pressures cannot be entirely disentangled. Could it be that natural maturity operates in a probabilistic domain where external conditions either accelerate or hinder the ego’s dissolution?

Finally, your suggestion that my perspective on the ‘unenlightened masses’ might reflect a projection of latent biases is insightful. Self-referential loops of perception are indeed a limitation of any phenomenological model, including the one I proposed. This invites a meta-question: to what extent does the observer’s maturity affect their ability to conceptualize enlightenment, and can such conceptualizations ever be free of the ego they aim to transcend?

I propose we explore a synthesis: if natural maturity is the basis of enlightenment, might the trajectory be nonlinear, with feedback loops between internal growth (ego dissolution) and external factors (cultural constructs)? How does this affect the compound you describe? I look forward to your insights.

May my more prudent response here provide you with the clarification you were perhaps seeking.

Edited Thursday at 07:23 PM by Letho

[Reciprocality]

@Letho

7 hours ago, Letho said:

Firstly, my metaphor of spinning wheels was not intended to ‘smuggle in’ a definition of enlightenment or ego voidness but to illustrate a dynamic interplay of qualities (X), contextualized within varying degrees of alignment (Y) as one approaches a paradigmatic shift (Z). This was an attempt to conceptualize maturity as a process of alignment, where competing constructs dissolve over time, revealing an emergent clarity. However, I acknowledge that my metaphor may have oversimplified your nuanced phenomenological model, and I appreciate your critique as an opportunity to refine it.

7 hours ago, Letho said:

Regarding cultural and sociopolitical influences, my intent was to suggest that these factors serve as external variables affecting the maturation process. While your argument implies that enlightenment remains independent of such influences, my position is that the interplay between internal maturation and external pressures cannot be entirely disentangled. Could it be that natural maturity operates in a probabilistic domain where external conditions either accelerate or hinder the ego’s dissolution?

If your position is that the maturation process is influenced by cultural factors then you were probably correct in saying that I should have reread your metaphor, the probabilistic domain of unknown cultural factors certainly influences the development and dissolution process of the ego, maturity or enlightenment, which the phenomenological argument states to be three expressions of the same thing.

Note on the bolded: Are you perhaps saying that the competition between constructs are inherent to the immature ego? And though the ego dissolves is it therefore precise to consider the competing constructs to dissolve with it, don't we for instance still have many of these constructs with us way after the ego has waved goodbye? And if the competition you were referring to instead were between the ego and maturity then it would certainly seem like you were stating the ratio-part of my phenomenological model in different words which, again, I should have figured out when I read it. The visualisation can certainly be helpful to some who would want to understand the idea we were discussing.

 

 

7 hours ago, Letho said:

Finally, your suggestion that my perspective on the ‘unenlightened masses’ might reflect a projection of latent biases is insightful. Self-referential loops of perception are indeed a limitation of any phenomenological model, including the one I proposed. This invites a meta-question: to what extent does the observer’s maturity affect their ability to conceptualize enlightenment, and can such conceptualizations ever be free of the ego they aim to transcend?

I propose we explore a synthesis: if natural maturity is the basis of enlightenment, might the trajectory be nonlinear, with feedback loops between internal growth (ego dissolution) and external factors (cultural constructs)? How does this affect the compound you describe? I look forward to your insights.

May my more prudent response here provide you with the clarification you were perhaps seeking.

Are you suggesting that various iterations of the development of an ego can to some extent not be compared to one another due to how perception is self referential (projection from subject to object) in each iteration? This is interesting, it does not seem way off but I would want to hear more about how you conceptualise this without getting too speculative myself.

The effect that ego-dissolution has with the more and more clear insight into ones own conditioning through the perception of behaviour of other people just as one sees ones own character as present in their behaviour thus separation between a. stimuli/objects and b. identity (self-reference) while perceiving ones surrounding then the ratio of this compound simply follows the non-linear trajectory you suggest, if given enough time, effort, sincerity and discipline. The result is that one grows a higher curiosity to the things that exists independently of ones own memory and intellect, partially due to how one knows that others are just like one self, which does appear to provide the somewhat paradoxical and self-referential loop you problematised above.

 

Note on the bolded question: Yes the idea is that our identity of going the enlightened path is conditioned on continuously identifying the ego delusions of other people and culture at large, that this happens because we carry at all times a perspective of the world itself for the purpose of comparing ourself to it and keeping us within beneficial limits. 

 

Edited yesterday at 02:33 AM by Reciprocality

[Reciprocality]

@Letho Another possible byproduct of this non-linear trajectory of self-reference is that universals (things kind of existing outside of time) become ends in themselves, much like how Schopenhauer depicts his Platonic philosophy in The World As Will And Representation, whether they are universals of beauty, teleology, development, intent, appearance, identity or perhaps "transcendental" concepts that unify all of reality such as we find in the dualities of essence/accident, mind/body, predicate/subject, homogeneity/complexity as well as the cognitive systems and contexts they couple with in precise ways.

If all living beings, whether human, animal, biological or non-biological operate in the same ways and for the same purposes for reasons that can be investigated with sufficient conceptual baggage and without reliance on dogmatic teleology then I can not see otherwise than that this would be the pinnacle of universals, self-reference and ego-dissolution, as it provides for a direct connection to the reasons for and eternally repeating footprint of existence.

[James123]

On 11/21/2024 at 1:17 AM, Reciprocality said:

The following is conditional inference

If enlightenment is phenomenological and everything phenomenological adds up to a complete compound and all things that adds up to complete compounds has a ratio to one another and natural maturity reduces the sections of the complete compound that concerns the continuous drive of the ego-construct then it follows that natural maturity is enlightenment.

I intentionally avoid defining enlightenment so that the assertion bolded above isn't tautological without the phenomenological if-statements.

 

Id be interested in a discussion on the correctness of these premises.

Because, Enlightenment is simply being where You already are. That's it. 

[Letho]

@Reciprocality you're circling something vital. Ego isn’t a singular dissolution, it’s a recalibration. Constructs don’t vanish; they realign. The 'competition' you flagged in ego is just noise from intent misfiring, aka Reciprocality going back to the wheels analogy, immature alignment. Once intent stabilizes, those constructs transcend their infantile grasping and become tools for universal attunement. Like beauty, truth, dualities, they aren't abstractions; they're reflections of perfected coherence.

Self-reference? Sure, perception folds onto itself, but it's dynamic, not static, a fractal reframing with every alignment. Your non-linear trajectory tracks, ego unravels at the pace of disciplined sincerity, each step sharpening curiosity for what exists outside and through us. Schopenhauer’s ‘Platonic universals’? I'd call them ontological fulcrums mate, anchoring our shifts. As the ego’s grip loosens, intent finds resonance in those universals, aligning perception with purpose.

And yes, seeing others conditioning mirrors our own, it's so weirdz, a recursive feedback loop of maturity. This isn’t just enlightenment; it's ego reassembled into functional resonance, no longer competing but harmonizing with the universal unarticulable ‘vibe'; everything is able to be articlated with language though, we just have to transcend our present use to something better and then voila. So it's evolution through surrender to intent's arrow, aimed not just at truth, but the coherence that lets truth shine. What you call the 'footprint of existence'? I’d say it’s less 'eternal repeat' and more a spiral, if we turn my wheel analogy into that, a spiral that is the same, yet never the same.

What are you truly trying to achieve in your awareness? Where have you succeeded since our last conversing? What new designs genuinely make something for your wisdom?

[Kuba Powiertowski]

@Letho

15 hours ago, Letho said:

This invites a meta-question: to what extent does the observer’s maturity affect their ability to conceptualize enlightenment, and can such conceptualizations ever be free of the ego they aim to transcend?

I believe that this will never happen because every conceptualization is an intellectual process, the nature, the immanent feature of which is Godel's incompleteness extended by Gregory Chaitin to information processing systems. In the direction, let's say, "forward" a cascade of paradoxes awaits you, in the direction "backward" an infinite regression of assumption to assumption contained in the question: how do you know that you know? If you do not develop intuition that works interdimensionally, perpendicular to this dimension and not along it, you will get stuck in speculations such as: can an infinitely small pinhead hold an infinite number of dancing, infinitely small devils. Intellect without the counterweight of intuition is a labyrinth without an exit. Without (human) intellect human experience simply does not occur.