Make America Healthy Again is a joke.

[hundreth]

2 hours ago, zazen said:

@zurew

I'm not calling for rejection of institutions or experts outright. Just pointing to a broader phenomenon - the erosion of trust in institutions and why so many people feel disillusioned.  Some of the breaches of trust aren't just trivial missteps - they’re big enough to have shaped how people view authority. You can’t blame people for being skeptical when the institutions asking for their trust have repeatedly acted against the public’s interests.

I said in the post ''the right generally don't trust institutions enough, whilst the left generally trust them too much''. I'm aware that alternative non establishment media can be flawed including RFK. People are simply navigating a broken system where trust is fractured, and they’re piecing together what they can from the information available wherever they can get it. Sometimes that means questioning the institutional narrative - it’s not about blind faith in anyone.

Social media isn't perfect but its revealed how manipulative mainstream media can be. For example when we see full clips of speeches that contradict the edited soundbites used to smear someone. If the institutions lying to us are the same ones gatekeeping information, of course people are going to look elsewhere - and once they find that alternative media is flawed too, they will be a bit disillusioned on who to trust and how to trust. This stress makes people fall into camps to avoid nuance - like either trust institutions or don't trust them.

The rise of populism isn’t just blind rage - it’s a response to a system that has failed to serve ordinary people. People are desperate enough for change that they’re willing to take risks on populist leaders because the status quo has proven itself untrustworthy. The institutions demanding peoples trust haven’t earned it - or previously had but have betrayed it with a thousand cuts.  Skepticism is a natural response and trust needs to be re-built - but it won't be if everyone skeptical gets shut down as a conspiracist.

 

Yeah, there's many reasons to distrust the establishment - valid ones. The main problem is that we've jumped from the frying pan and into the fire.

I think this is a natural response. When you're struggling and looking for answers, the instinct is to latch on to what you want to hear. I've experienced this in my personal life dealing with health issues. Doctors didn't help, and then found false prophets online to give me false hope with snake oil. 

You learn over time that while establishment figures are deeply flawed, there are even greater dangers lurking in the dark depths of the sea. Threading that needle is exceptionally hard. 

Knowing how to parse information and dig through wads of bullshit is a skill only a very tiny fraction of people have. But that should be the lesson here. This is a chance for masses to experience this and learn critical thinking skills. Instead, we use this opportunity to express our frustrations by justifying the clown show that is the Trump experience.

[Jodistrict]

28 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Yeah, there's many reasons to distrust the establishment - valid ones. The main problem is that we've jumped from the frying pan and into the fire.

I think this is a natural response. When you're struggling and looking for answers, the instinct is to latch on to what you want to hear. I've experienced this in my personal life dealing with health issues. Doctors didn't help, and then found false prophets online to give me false hope with snake oil. 

You learn over time that while establishment figures are deeply flawed, there are even greater dangers lurking in the dark depths of the sea. Threading that needle is exceptionally hard. 

Knowing how to parse information and dig through wads of bullshit is a skill only a very tiny fraction of people have. But that should be the lesson here. This is a chance for masses to experience this and learn critical thinking skills. Instead, we use this opportunity to express our frustrations by justifying the clown show that is the Trump experience.

Ask yourself who is putting out the information to make you afraid.  Big pharma and corrupt bureaucrats don't want reformers.  And do you know any doctor who doesn't receive perks from big pharma?   The danger is doing nothing.  Focus on the facts:  the chronic disease epidemic is real.    

[PurpleTree]

1 hour ago, r0ckyreed said:

What is an expert? How do you know they aren’t deluded? Just because you are Einstein doesn’t mean you are deluded free. RFK is full of shit. Until you get that, you aren’t awake.

Are you awake? And if so in what way are you awake?

[hundreth]

6 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

Ask yourself who is putting out the information to make you afraid.  Big pharma and corrupt bureaucrats don't want reformers.  And do you know any doctor who doesn't receive perks from big pharma?   The danger is doing nothing.  Focus on the facts:  the chronic disease epidemic is real.    

What does that have to do with what I wrote? You're literally exemplifying my point.

[zazen]

@hundreth  On point. Neither institutions or individuals should get a free pass to exploit peoples trust. Theres tons of snake oils types waiting to make money off people. It's like a feedback loop where when institutions fail, they cause people to look elsewhere and get burned if they aren't careful enough. I think people hold institutions to a higher standard simply due to their role (designed to serve the public good) and scale - corruption that exists among institutions can impact a far greater number of people compared to individuals - though individuals are now punching above their weight thanks to social media.

People see the corruption of institutions and their governments then claim to be red pilled - once they then witness the corruption of individuals who promised to offer solutions where institutions didn't - they become black pilled and very cynical. It's utterly destabilising to the health of a society. Perhaps the onus is more on institutions as they have the power, societal mandate and purpose to serve the public - people falling prey to individuals and alternatives is the symptom of institutional failings. 

18 hours ago, zurew said:

@zazen That can be used for a possible explanation for distrust - but there is a difference between providing an explanation for why people distrust mainstream media and institutions in general and why they are anti establishtment vs trying to claim that the reasoning that those people use is actually rational and a good position to have.

There are a bunch of explanations that can be provided why people are irrational and vibe based, but that explanation doesn't change the fact that they are irrational to hold on to the postion that they have.

Its like your mother lie to you about santa clause and from then on you will just assume that she will lie about everything else and you dont evaluate each claim she makes on its on merits.

To justify the  usage of the heruistic of "I will never trust anything my mother says , because I will just assume that she will lie" you will need to provide a much more complex reasoning. And even after that reasoning is established - the usage of a heruistic will always be epistemically conquered by the specific evaluation of the given claim your mother makes - and for that you need to actually engage with the specific data and evaluate that data on its own merits without relying on any specific kind of heruistic.

Good points. We generally can't rationalise people out of positions they didn't rationalise themselves into - for many people they simply responded to the circumstances. Major institutions failing once in a while in isolated pockets isn't enough to cause people to lose trust - it's a relationship between institutions and individuals which has eroded over time.  When breach of trust accumulates over many incidents it's not as irrational to be wary of future claims from those same institutions - but its a error to dismiss them outright as you and hundreth have said.

If mamma bear lies about Santa it's one thing, but if she lies about who my real pappa bear is thats a whole other - so the type of lie matters, as well as the number of them. People being lied to about the wars their men get sent out to die for - and to kill and destabilise entire regions is a scale and type of lie so large and egregious it makes one believe evil exists. If someones in a abusive relationship where they are lied to and cheated on many times - which creates a recognisable pattern - it's a a natural outcome to develop a heuristic as a defence mechanism. We'll be skeptical going forward.

Ideally people would evaluate the merit of every claim being made - but thats exactly what institutions are there for and serve the function of - because every day people generally don't have the time, expertise or resources to do so. Which is why institutions are held to a higher standard, which is why them failing multiple times disillusioned people enough to look elsewhere then get burned by alternatives.

Edited November 20 by zazen

[zazen]

To add to above: it's harder to turn around a titanic than a dingy. People consciously think or sub-conciously feel - that more change is possible with a individual or a small group of them, than established institutions. The former are more nimble and agile, the latter are frozen by inertia and paralyzed by decades of bureaucratic momentum, interconnected interests, and self-preserving mechanisms that resist change or change too slow in a world requiring the opposite. Change seems more possible in the margins where mavericks, misfits and macho men are than in a massive immovable center resisting it.

This is not an endorsement, simply a observation. I'm aware of the dangers of power being held by non-establishment individuals and wild card saviors - they're talk of minimized regulations can seem like a boon for small business until those small fish realize that big fish eat little fish when in the wild (un-regulated market) - and that food doesn't always trickle down to the bottom of the ocean. Also, those ''revolutionaries'' can become the very establishment they rallied against - and so it happens in history.

Both global and nationalist modes of power are fundamentally parasitic: One extracts wealth through borderless corporate imperialism, devouring national populations for global profit - this is the faceless establishment machine. The other concentrates power in individual oligarchs who treat nations as personal fiefdoms. Different tactics, same predatory result - same attitudes working on different latitudes.

Edited November 20 by zazen

[Leo Gura]

This is the delusion of RFK:

The notion that RFK is some kind of good guy is pure nonsense. RFK has bullshitted himself with such wrong perceptions of reality that he is dangerous.

Edited November 20 by Leo Gura

[Jodistrict]

On the conspiracy charge, one thing to keep in mind is that RFK just be virtue of being a Kennedy grew up personally witnessing men at the highest level of power doing things through back channels that the public never learns about.   I would trust RFK’s intuition about power over two young youtubers who recently graduated from high school.   That doesn’t mean we should accept what he says on Covid, but he does have a position and he is willing to defend it with evidence rather than calling names.

[Leo Gura]

48 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

he is willing to defend it with evidence

No he isn't. He's a deluded liar.

Edited November 20 by Leo Gura

[Yimpa]

Jokes on all of us. We are all deluded! 

Edited November 20 by Yimpa

[Jodistrict]

RFK will soon have the power he needs to make America healthy again.  

[Yimpa]

MAHAhaha

[Recursoinominado]

33 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

RFK will soon have the power he needs to make America healthy again.  

lol

[Beans]

When will we Make America Sane Again?

Read my signature 

[Happy Lizard]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This is the delusion of RFK:

The notion that RFK is some kind of good guy is pure nonsense. RFK has bullshitted himself with such wrong perceptions of reality that he is dangerous.

In these situations, how do we know whats true? I know I should probably watch your video on that again, but I’ve seen seriously developed people speak about these conspiracies, it’s not just people that look wonky like RFK. 
Do you think a video about vaccines and Covid is worth while?

[Leo Gura]

14 minutes ago, Happy Lizard said:

In these situations, how do we know whats true? I know I should probably watch your video on that again, but I’ve seen seriously developed people speak about these conspiracies, it’s not just people that look wonky like RFK.

If you actually listen to some of the batshit things RFK has said over time you will see his mind is clearly unhinged and epistemically rotten. He has a documented history of making wildly false and absurd claims like that Covid was created to target Jews, or whatever. I don't even remember them all now. He claimed AIDS was caused by drugs. It is not hard to know these claims are delusional nonsense. And then RFK doubles down on his falsehood by denying he ever made these claims when we have him on the record. So you can see his mind bullshitting and squirming around like a slimey eel. That's how you know not to take him seriously. He feeds his mind with fringe garbage.

Quote

Do you think a video about vaccines and Covid is worth while?

I got better things to do than debate vaccines.

The Covid vaccine saved millions of lives. That's the bottom line that none of these vaccine clowns can face.

Edited November 21 by Leo Gura

[Happy Lizard]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The Covid vaccine saved millions of lives. That's the bottom line that none of these vaccine clowns can face.

I’m with you on this, but it is so damn tough to face the claims of vaccines killing millions (?) of people and causing this and that, and Bill Gates being behind it and crap like that from people I consider my heros. I don’t even know if I should go into that rabbit hole just to check their claims for myself. 

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, Happy Lizard said:

but it is so damn tough to face the claims of vaccines killing millions (?) of people and causing this and that, and Bill Gates being behind it and crap like that

That's not hard at all.

That's clearly nonsense.

Quote

from people I consider my heros.

There's the issue. You assume that these media monkeys have serious intellectual weight when really they are entertainers.

You are confusing entertainment for serious understanding. No one in the media is qualified to understand reality. They are entertainers. Stop taking them seriously.

Edited November 21 by Leo Gura

[Happy Lizard]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

 

There's the issue. You assume that these media monkeys have serious intellectual weight when really they are entertainers.

You are confusing entertainment for serious understanding. No one in the media is qualified to understand reality. They are entertainers. Stop taking them seriously.

I didn’t mean it’s hard to see it’s nonsense, and it’s not media people I’m saying Imagine someone like your own mentor Ralston starts saying shit like that, I wouldn’t know but I imagine you’d be so surprised you’d start questioning yourself. At least with RFK a 10 years old can tell he’s got some screws loose.

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Happy Lizard said:

I’m saying Imagine someone like your own mentor Ralston starts saying shit like that

That would be very disappointing, but Ralston is in a league of his own. There's no human I know of who warrants such regard.

Edited November 21 by Leo Gura