Watching The Dominion

[Something Funny]

I invite anyone who is interested to watch this documentary on animal abuse and exploitation and then share their thoughts.

I am currently on minute 6 and I can't imagine how huge the balls of the journalists who were filming all that must be.

 

 

[Something Funny]

@numbersinarow @Buck Edwards I dare you to watch the first 20 minutes of this and then talk to me about plants and bacteria.

[Something Funny]

@Buck Edwards can't say that I am surprised.

Why care about truth, love, and consciousness, when you can make your life about eating and shitting.

 

[Marcel]

33 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

@numbersinarow @Buck Edwards I dare you to watch the first 20 minutes of this and then talk to me about plants and bacteria.

Watched the first 20 minutes and planning to watch the entire movie. 

It is horrible, but to add to the whole bacteria and plants topic.

What if it’s exactly like that for them too, when they are harvested, uprooted etc. ? 

You can’t escape survival. It’s brutal 
 

[Something Funny]

3 minutes ago, Marcel said:

What if it’s exactly like that for them too, when they are harvested, uprooted etc. ? 

 

1. I refer you to my comment about how more plants due to animal farming than due to human consumption.
2. My common sense tells me that it's not like that for them too. Do we have any evidence that plant feel pain and suffer in the same way that animals do? With animals we know for a fact that they have pain receptors and we can see pain signals and measure the levels of pain due to brain scans. There is also no reason why plants would evolve the ability to feel pain when they can't do anything about it. Pain is a survival mechanism. Plants have different survival strategies like having thorns and being poisonous.

[Something Funny]

@Marcel But thank you for actually watching it. I appreciate and respect you for that.

[Marcel]

8 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

1. I refer you to my comment about how more plants due to animal farming than due to human consumption.
2. My common sense tells me that it's not like that for them too. Do we have any evidence that plant feel pain and suffer in the same way that animals do? With animals we know for a fact that they have pain receptors and we can see pain signals and measure the levels of pain due to brain scans. There is also no reason why plants would evolve the ability to feel pain when they can't do anything about it. Pain is a survival mechanism. Plants have different survival strategies like having thorns and being poisonous.

1. Fair enough and I do agree on that part.

2. 

 

[LambdaDelta]

Apparently I've already seen it some years ago. Not a bad idea to get a refresher. There's also another docu 'Lucent' from the same people that focuses solely on pigs. Out of all the farm animals, they're probably treated the worst. And interestingly it's still the most consumed meat in the world despite excluding all the Muslims.

Watching this on a psychedelic would be wild. Your love would grow so much. But it might also traumatize you.

[Something Funny]

@Marcel okay, so a bunch of inconclusive studies with questionable methodology and inconclusive results, and nothing on pain or suffering.

1. electrical conductivity changes in response to a variety of stimuli including emotions or thoughts.

All that tells us is that depending on a stimuli, plant body conducts electricity differently. Which can be said about literally anything. Metals will have different conductivity based on temperature and other environmental factors. There is no evidence that would suggest that plant can make a conscious decision to change it, their material just reacts to environmental conditions.

2. Plants respond to a variety of stimuli, like light, touch, and sound.

Yes, that's pretty self-evident and expected. You put a flower in a dark room and it will die. You touch a gentle plant too much and it will die. Sounds can probably disturb them to, but that's not a plant exclusive thing, it's just a physical phenomenon. Have you ever grown crystal in school? 

This tells us nothing about suffering, or pain.

3. Plants can communicate through chemical signals

Once again, really interesting but irrelevant. One plant releases a chemical cause it's being eaten -> another plants receptors detect it and start releasing it as well. That's not a conscious decision, just like it's not a conscious decision for you to start salivating when you smell tasty food.

4. The kills of the dracena

Very interesting if true, but as it says in the video, probably just flawed methodology.

 

Edited November 17 by Something Funny

[Something Funny]

@LambdaDelta thanks for sharing I will check it out. Yes, watching it with psychedelics would probably be a life changing experience. I think I might do it in the future.

[Marcel]

16 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

4. The kills of the dracena

Very interesting if true, but as it says in the video, probably just flawed methodology.

Well, the experiment can be easily replicated and verified or disproven of course, if someone set out to do so. ( Only part of the video I actually cared about, forgot to timestamp it, my apologies )

Lets face it. We, at a very large scale do not understand plants or how they may or may not perceive or feel pain etc.

The idea plants could be conscious or can feel pain similar to humans or animals is a very radical paradigm shift. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 17 by Marcel

[Something Funny]

13 minutes ago, Marcel said:

Well, the experiment can be easily replicated and verified or disproven of course, if someone set out to do so. ( Only part of the video I actually cared about, forgot to timestamp it, my apologies )

Not everyone, that's exactly the challenge. You need a controlled environment where you know that no other factor influence its electric conductivity. How do you that? Maybe that who killed the other plant was sweating heavily, or was sick, or was on her period, used some cosmetics product, etc., etc.

And even if you do it perfectly, all you are left with is the knowledge that plant's conductivity changes. What does a change in conductivity mean?

15 minutes ago, Marcel said:

Lets face it. We, at a very large scale do not understand plants or how they may or may not perceive or feel pain etc.

The idea plants could be conscious or can feel pain similar to humans or animals is a very radical paradigm shift. 

Yes.

But here is another paradigm shift:

There is a huge difference in how cruel and desensitised a person needs to be to pick a flower and to kill an animal.
There is a huge difference in how you will feel emotionally if you kill an animal with your own hands and if you pick up a carrot and eat it. 

Why is that? Have you ever thought about it?

[Buck Edwards]

2 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

There is a huge difference in how cruel and desensitised a person needs to be to pick a flower and to kill an animal.
There is a huge difference in how you will feel emotionally if you kill an animal with your own hands and if you pick up a carrot and eat it. 

Why is that? Have you ever thought about it?

The difference is only in perception and social conditioning. 

[Something Funny]

Just now, Buck Edwards said:

The difference is only in perception and social conditioning. 

You got it in the wrong order. Feelings dictate social conditioning. How come society has evolved to see this as a bad thing?

And perception is literally the only thing that there is for you. In a world where there are no objective moral values and ethics, all you have to guide you are your feelings and perceptions.

[Marcel]

@Something Funny Fair enough. Let’s say we could set the experiment up in a way that factors everything you mentioned and beyond in.

Well that’s the thing, what does the change in conductivity mean? ( Assuming the result stays the same, I’m speaking hypothetically ) Does anyone actually deeply understand that? 

Or if it turns out to be flawed experiment to begin with, how would someone prove or disprove that plants do or do not experience something akin to pain / are or aren’t conscious?

 

„There is a huge difference in how cruel and desensitised a person needs to be to pick a flower and to kill an animal.
There is a huge difference in how you will feel emotionally if you kill an animal with your own hands and if you pick up a carrot and eat it. 

Why is that? Have you ever thought about it?“

The problem is perception ( including, culture, conditioning etc. ) The emotional reaction or lack of one is dependent on how someone views an animal or plant. 

A farmer that kicks animals ( or worse ) like in the documentary you shared doesn’t have much of a reaction anymore, or even enjoys  it! Like the guys hunting wild boar.

What do you think the perception of someone who abuses animals is? How do they see them? 

Just imagine we ( hypothetically, I’m not saying this is the case ) all collectively knew that flowers were living conscious beings and have actual relationships with other plants.

How much difference in desensitisation would it be between killing a plant vs animal in that case?

 

 

[Buck Edwards]

26 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

You got it in the wrong order. Feelings dictate social conditioning. How come society has evolved to see this as a bad thing?

And perception is literally the only thing that there is for you. In a world where there are no objective moral values and ethics, all you have to guide you are your feelings and perceptions.

You're only proving my point further. If your morality is based on your feelings, then fuck feelings and fuck morality. Why should your feelings be more important than someone else's? 

Also if you are so into being a vegan and preaching others against eating meat and how their lives are only about eating and shitting then Leo should be the last person you should support or his platform. Because Leo is not a vegan but I know you won't have a problem with that since he is the founder of the forum. You will only use your shame tactics on other people because that's easier, hypocrisy much. It reminds me of people (especially celebrities) who say they stand  against animal cruelty and then wear handbags made of crocodile skin. Supporting Leo is like supporting a brand that makes handbags out of crocodile skin. But you won't have a problem with it since you are of such pure conscience that you stand against animal cruelty. 

Edited November 17 by Buck Edwards

[Something Funny]

@Buck Edwards I am sorry, I really tried talking to but I just can't.

I have said multiple time how I am not vegan, yet you write "if you are so into being vegan".

I've said multiple time how nothing is objectively good or bad, and how morality is subjective, and yet you once again ask me why should my feelings be more important than anyone else's.

It's just not possible to have a conversation with you. It's like you don't even read what another person writes, you just keep talking to your self. 

Edited November 17 by Something Funny

[Something Funny]

12 minutes ago, Marcel said:

The problem is perception ( including, culture, conditioning etc. ) The emotional reaction or lack of one is dependent on how someone views an animal or plant. 

 

Yes, but why are those culture, conditioning, etc., one way and not the other? I think that everyone kind of intuitively recognises how killing an animal is not the best thing in the world to do. It's just that when survival, and food, and money, and sex, come into play it's very easy to ignore this intuition and rationalise it away. 

13 minutes ago, Marcel said:

A farmer that kicks animals ( or worse ) like in the documentary you shared doesn’t have much of a reaction anymore, or even enjoys  it! Like the guys hunting wild boar.

 

Because he is probably completely desensitised and estranged from himself. Just imagine what working in that hell must be like. If you kept your emotions there you would just go insane and kill yourself in a week. It's like people who dissociate when something traumatic happens to them.

Hunting is different. I believe there is a natural hunting instinct in us that makes people enjoy it. But I wonder how they would feel about what they did if they actually sat down, allowed their hormones to chill out and contemplated their actions. Because it seems to me that anyone who does that will start feeling bad about hunting and killing.

This was not a boar btw, just a wild pig. Like they said, those are just pigs that people brought on ships with them in the past and let loose. A wild boar would fuck them all up so bad it's not even funny.

[Marcel]

15 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

Yes, but why are those culture, conditioning, etc., one way and not the other? I think that everyone kind of intuitively recognises how killing an animal is not the best thing in the world to do. It's just that when survival, and food, and money, and sex, come into play it's very easy to ignore this intuition and rationalise it away. 

I don’t think it’s universally true that everyone recognises that, even kind of, intuitively. Hell, some people enjoy torturing animals for sport.

It is indeed very easy to rationalise stuff like factory farming and animal cruelty away, especially because well, we eat them and are very far removed from the whole slaughtering process 99.99% of the time.

The hunting dudes were very much enjoying that their dogs bit into the pig to stop it from escaping and the subsequent throat slitting and killing.

Perception. How do they see these pigs?

And yes. If they ( people working in these places and the hunters I just described ) allowed themselves to reflect or practice genuine compassion it would hurt bitterly in retrospect.

Edited November 17 by Marcel

[Something Funny]

Just now, Marcel said:

And yes. If they allowed themselves to reflect or practice genuine compassion it would hurt bitterly in retrospect.

That's what I am trying to say. Sure many people avoid thinking about things to deeply, are detached from their emotions, or are cruel. Some literally have no empathy due to how their brain works. But most people, with healthy, neurotypical brain, when fully conscious of what they are doing, would feel bad about killing an animal.