The Decline of the West | Oswald Spengler

[Nilsi]

One of the most audacious political minds of the 20th century; the uncompromising Anti-Hegelian historian of our age - this is the kind of raw, unfiltered thought you can’t afford to ignore.

[Nilsi]

 

[Rafael Thundercat]

Interresting , connect that with the insigth of the Book The Dawn of Everthing- A New History of Everything. Book by the studies of an Archeologist and an Atrophologist. The Narratives of Historical Stages were influenced by the Bias pf each Historian. Some more Hobbean others more Rosseurlian, but the findings in the field are more weird than any linear system can say. Humans in the past had more flexibility in their organizing lifes or economies. Some eras of Anarchy other Eras of Tyrany, etc... 

Difficult to explain, check the book. 

But nice video anyway

[Nilsi]

12 minutes ago, Rafael Thundercat said:

Interresting , connect that with the insigth of the Book The Dawn of Everthing- A New History of Everything. Book by the studies of an Archeologist and an Atrophologist. The Narratives of Historical Stages were influenced by the Bias pf each Historian. Some more Hobbean others more Rosseurlian, but the findings in the field are more weird than any linear system can say. Humans in the past had more flexibility in their organizing lifes or economies. Some eras of Anarchy other Eras of Tyrany, etc... 

Difficult to explain, check the book. 

But nice video anyway

I literally referenced that book earlier today, and I’m fully on board with it.

Another great pick would be Manuel DeLanda's A Thousand Years of Nonlinear History.

Anything that takes down the Hegelians and Wilberians is a win in my book.

[Oeaohoo]

19 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Anything that takes down the Hegelians and Wilberians is a win in my book.

Interesting. What made you turn away from Ken Wilber? Maybe I had something to do with it…

I never got that into Spengler, something about his style always turns me off — it’s like Nietzsche but lacking the same depth of insight.

I do like his idea of the “second religiosity”, the debased form of spirituality which one finds in a late and decadent civilisation — it fits the “new age” phenomenon, including most of what you will find in the Spirituality tab on this forum, very well.

Anyway, maybe one day I’ll get you reading Guénon and Evola…

[Jannes]

I am not that deeply familiar with the works of any of these philosophers, the most probably with Ken Wilber. 

Do I understand correctly that roughly speaking what sets Oswald Stranglers political philosophy apart from Hegel or Ken Wilber is that he thinks that society isnt evolving linerally, or not even linerally on average but that society is simply going through cycles and so this society is eventually naturally dying and a new society will arise with a different metaphysical interpretation of reality?

[Oeaohoo]

3 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Do I understand correctly that roughly speaking what sets Oswald Stranglers political philosophy apart from Hegel or Ken Wilber is that he thinks that society isnt evolving linerally, or not even linerally on average but that society is simply going through cycles and so this society is eventually naturally dying and a new society will arise with a different metaphysical interpretation of reality?

Yeah, basically.

[Jannes]

1 minute ago, Oeaohoo said:

Yeah, basically.

Okay thanks.

[Nilsi]

17 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

Interesting. What made you turn away from Ken Wilber? Maybe I had something to do with it…

I never got that into Spengler, something about his style always turns me off — it’s like Nietzsche but lacking the same depth of insight.

I do like his idea of the “second religiosity”, the debased form of spirituality which one finds in a late and decadent civilisation — it fits the “new age” phenomenon, including most of what you will find in the Spirituality tab on this forum, very well.

Anyway, maybe one day I’ll get you reading Guénon and Evola…

Well, hello there - long time no see.

It was a mix of Nietzsche and French poststructuralists like Foucault and Deleuze. My fundamental critique of grand evolutionary narratives is that their teleology is ultimately self-serving, culturally contingent, and driven by passive forces like nihilism and ressentiment.

That probably just makes me a vulgar postmodernist, so I doubt you’ll have much luck converting me to your traditionalism. That said, I do find it intriguing - in the same way that all things exotic are intriguing - since it feels so alien to the texts I’m accustomed to.

Edited November 16 by Nilsi

[Oeaohoo]

19 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

That probably just makes me a vulgar postmodernist, so I doubt you’ll have much luck converting me to your traditionalism. That said, I do find it intriguing - in the same way that all things exotic are intriguing - since it feels so alien to the texts I’m accustomed to.

I imagine a Wilberian would say that you have regressed to Stage Green. Accepting that model, it makes sense to me that you would do this since you seem quite attached to the pleasures of modern life - partying, girls and so on - which are all very Green in our time. Most “cool” people in European cities are Stage Green. Being Stage Yellow would probably make you feel much more out of the loop…

[Nilsi]

43 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

I imagine a Wilberian would say that you have regressed to Stage Green. Accepting that model, it makes sense to me that you would do this since you seem quite attached to the pleasures of modern life - partying, girls and so on - which are all very Green in our time. Most “cool” people in European cities are Stage Green. Being Stage Yellow would probably make you feel much more out of the loop…

I reject this model, obviously.

That said, it’s a fair analysis to some extent, though I’d argue there’s a deeper, more profound will to power than simply being some hot-shot yuppie.

What drives me - and I think you might relate to this - is the sublime (which is never accessed through the gaze of the other and thus never perceived as "cool" by it). For me, it lies in the uncanny gap between the promises of postmodern late-stage capitalism and its radical immanent critique. In an ironically Hegelian twist, this critique emerges by playing the bit so perfectly that capitalism’s ideological structure begins to fracture, its iconography exhausts itself, and a space for true artistic autonomy opens.

There’s no revolutionary impulse here - this is purely an aesthetic one.

Edited November 16 by Nilsi

[Hardkill]

How many of you feel like the end is nigh?

I now feel like I am going to be arrested and imprisoned by the gestapo in Nazi Regime or thrown into the Gulag in Russia just because the fascists in power now can.

Edited November 16 by Hardkill

[Oeaohoo]

51 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

What drives me - and I think you might relate to this - is the sublime. For me, it lies in the uncanny gap between the promises of postmodern late-stage capitalism and its radical immanent critique. In an ironically Hegelian twist, this critique emerges by playing the bit so perfectly that capitalism’s ideological structure begins to fracture, its iconography exhausts itself, and a space for true artistic autonomy opens.

There’s no revolutionary impulse here - this is purely an aesthetic one.

That makes sense, I just can’t bring myself to play the bit… Maybe someday I’ll have to. What does it look like for you?

The trouble with not playing the bit is that you end up in a weak and vulnerable position, more and more conditioned by the very system which you are trying to escape. This has basically happened to me.

36 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

How many of you feel like the end is nigh?

I now feel like I am going to be arrested and imprisoned by the gestapo in Nazi Regime or thrown into the Gulag in Russia just because the fascists in power now can.

Well, I feel the same, only the other way around… Then again, I’m not in America!

By the way, Trump’s rise reminds me of Spengler’s theory of Caesarism:

Quote

Spengler predicted that about the year 2000, Western civilization would enter the period of pre‑death emergency which would lead to 200 years of Caesarism (extra-constitutional omnipotence of the executive branch of government) before Western civilization's final collapse.

[Rafael Thundercat]

3 hours ago, Nilsi said:

I literally referenced that book earlier today, and I’m fully on board with it.

Another great pick would be Manuel DeLanda's A Thousand Years of Nonlinear History.

Anything that takes down the Hegelians and Wilberians is a win in my book.

Will check that. Why you say that anything that takes down the Hegelians and Wilberians is a win? Wilberians refers to Ken Wilber?

I checked Delanda Book on GoodReads and sound like a good perspective to see History. This is what I like, new perspectives, because here and there one researcher will eventually have some bias, maybe one forget to take something or other in consideration. For exemple in the Book New Dawn of Everything the writers talk about  Bones found in Burials and This specific are decorated with many precious laborious ornaments. The question the writers are debating is if this sort of Burial shows that there was a sense of superiority in this people to be buried like this, so this would be a trace of inequality in pre-historic times. But the writers are aware that we tend to speculate and make our theories fit the findings so they reframe the question: Is not that this burials where special, the questions is that, if was a commom habit, why not to find every one buried like this and not just some rare ones? 

Antropology is hard work, because there is little material and lot of silence, trying to give voice to bones. Hehe

Edited November 17 by Rafael Thundercat

[Rafael Thundercat]

1 hour ago, Nilsi said:

For me, it lies in the uncanny gap between the promises of postmodern late-stage capitalism and its radical immanent critique. In an ironically Hegelian twist, this critique emerges by playing the bit so perfectly that capitalism’s ideological structure begins to fracture, its iconography exhausts itself, and a space for true artistic autonomy opens.

The image of the end of the Movie Blade Runner ( New Version) came to my mind. That movie may be a little depressing but who to say that the future need necessarialy to be Brilliant? What the Future looks Like to Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis? Well, no body can answer,they are gone

[Nilsi]

10 hours ago, Oeaohoo said:

That makes sense, I just can’t bring myself to play the bit… Maybe someday I’ll have to. What does it look like for you?

The trouble with not playing the bit is that you end up in a weak and vulnerable position, more and more conditioned by the very system which you are trying to escape. This has basically happened to me.

For me it looks like being a dirtbag bourgeois hustler, working under a caesarian egomaniac in a corporate scene straight out of American Psycho: egos battling over clients, designer labels, and pussy.

I nonetheless see myself as a renegade - disrupting the free-market machine by manipulating managing directors and corporate players, appealing to their irrationality to secure big checks as a middleman.

It’s all just a stage where I refine my act and play the bit.

[Nilsi]

13 hours ago, Rafael Thundercat said:

This is what I like, new perspectives, because here and there one researcher will eventually have some bias, maybe one forget to take something or other in consideration

But what good is your intellectual stamp album if you can’t pay your rent, cultivate fulfilling relationships, or build a meaningful life?

I’d rather treat “perspectives” the way a hedge fund manager treats investments: sure, it’s important to know what’s out there, but in the end, you back the horses most likely to grow your fund. Of course, that choice depends entirely on the outcome you’re aiming for.

Nietzsche has a brilliant essay on this topic, titled On the Use and Abuse of History for Life. I highly recommend giving it a read.

Edited November 17 by Nilsi

[Oeaohoo]

12 hours ago, Nilsi said:

For me it looks like being a dirtbag bourgeois hustler, working under a caesarian egomaniac in a corporate scene straight out of American Psycho: egos battling over clients, designer labels, and pussy.

I nonetheless see myself as a renegade - disrupting the free-market machine by manipulating managing directors and corporate players, appealing to their irrationality to secure big checks as a middleman.

It’s all just a stage where I refine my act and play the bit.

Greed is GOOD! Sounds like my idea of hell.

I like the bit in American Psycho where he is breaking up with his girlfriend. She says, “What about all of our friends?”, and he says, “You can have them.”

[Nilsi]

11 hours ago, Oeaohoo said:

Greed is GOOD! Sounds like my idea of hell.

I like the bit in American Psycho where he is breaking up with his girlfriend. She says, “What about all of our friends?”, and he says, “You can have them.”

Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.

Besides, it’s great fun - I couldn’t imagine something more fun, actually.

[Oeaohoo]

1 hour ago, Nilsi said:

Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.

Oh, you handsome devil…

22 hours ago, Nilsi said:

But what good is your intellectual stamp album if you can’t pay your rent, cultivate fulfilling relationships, or build a meaningful life?

‘There’s more to life than books, you know, but not much more!’