There is too much emphasis on transcend and too little emphasis on include.

[Shane Hanlon]

Every spiritual circle I have been a part of always promises transcending your problems. How often is the focus on including and integrating your current and past beliefs, feelings, thoughts, actions, pain, love, relationships? It often seems like this is given no value or is the uglier cousin no one cares about in spiritual circles. It's all about realizing enlightenment, or god, or ending your suffering as fast and efficiently as possible - Totally missing the point of a human life and ultimately making for a more confusing, more shallow, and more painful journey.

To include is to Love.

[Atb210201]

I don't know which circles you have been in but I see both being discussed in spiritual circles actually.

Sure some might neglect some human aspects sometimes there are those too.

But in general both are there as I see it.

[Javfly33]

1 hour ago, Shane Hanlon said:

Every spiritual circle I have been a part of always promises transcending your problems. How often is the focus on including and integrating your current and past beliefs, feelings, thoughts, actions, pain, love, relationships? It often seems like this is given no value or is the uglier cousin no one cares about in spiritual circles. It's all about realizing enlightenment, or god, or ending your suffering as fast and efficiently as possible - Totally missing the point of a human life and ultimately making for a more confusing, more shallow, and more painful journey.

To include is to Love.

Your complain is nonsensical.

Spirituality is about trascendence. 

In that trascendence a new and more evolved way of handling problems might appear. 

But Spirituality is what it is. If you want to handle your problems in the common way you do it like that. 

I don´t understand what exactly you are complaining, is like going to a football club and complaining that they are missing the point of also adding some ping pong matches too in the interlude. 

You want to play football you go to a football club, you want play ping pong you go to ping pong club. Do not mix things up. 

Do not call spirituality a self serving circus of survival. 'Integrating being human' = I want to make spirituality again about my survival.

Edited Saturday at 07:19 PM by Javfly33

[Da77en]

The way I see it is that in order to transcend you must include/integrate. Any kind of separation you create within your consciousness prevents expansion and the transcendence into higher levels of consciousness. Compartmentalization, dissociation, avoidance, suppression, denial, ignorance, or any kind of separation doesn’t allow for transcendence.

Fear is a vibration of separation and constriction, the vibrations of your true nature are all about integrating and expanding.

So transcendence doesn’t necessarily contradict integration, at least from my perspective.

It’s just important to understand that integration is of your state of being. It’s about integrating your consciousness, which basically means letting go of your fears.

If anyone wants to learn how to let go of fear, here's a post I made:

 

Edited Sunday at 07:26 AM by Da77en

[PurpleTree]

The criticism of that which i heard.

Is that self help self healing is never ending. You solve one issue and another pops up. And you then become kind of addicted to that healing journey. Like a hammer sees nails everywhere. And you always think you’re not healed enough just yet but maybe someday soon. But that day never really arrives.

[ChrisZoZo]

6 hours ago, Shane Hanlon said:

How often is the focus on including and integrating your current and past beliefs, feelings, thoughts, actions, pain, love, relationships?

Heard of an enlightened master in Australia that tried doing adavanta for years. But then he realised that he really needs to be doing trauma healing. Then people will rapidly obtain it.

[ChrisZoZo]

6 hours ago, Shane Hanlon said:

transcending

Remember transcendence can be including the things that work and throwing out things that don’t. Obviously this is different than transcendence to enlightened states. Just want to be clear on that just in case this confusion.

[Yimpa]

This seems like a spiritual topic and would belong in the spiritual sub forum, but upon further observation and to go along with the topic at hand, we will include it into personal development sub

[Rafael Thundercat]

7 hours ago, Shane Hanlon said:

Every spiritual circle I have been a part of always promises transcending your problems. How often is the focus on including and integrating your current and past beliefs, feelings, thoughts, actions, pain, love, relationships? It often seems like this is given no value or is the uglier cousin no one cares about in spiritual circles. It's all about realizing enlightenment, or god, or ending your suffering as fast and efficiently as possible - Totally missing the point of a human life and ultimately making for a more confusing, more shallow, and more painful journey.

To include is to Love.

Integral Life Practice Book. Read apply and see results. Forget the Trancendentalists. You can Trancend existence, is existence all way down,up,left,rigth,ligth,dark,emotions,...keep including add infinitum

[Shane Hanlon]

6 hours ago, Atb210201 said:

But in general both are there as I see it.

Thank you for taking the time to share some thoughts. This idea is still half baked so bare with me.

They both exist to some extent. I believe the term "transcend and include" was popularized by Ken Wilber - a hugely influential writer in most english speaking spiritual contexts. Transcendence is exciting, mysterious, illuminating, confusing, and easy to spike emotions. It is often communicated as a panacea that you just quite haven't glimpsed yet. Just sit more, or go on more retreats, or buy my course. Memes spread faster and are stickier when it is presented in this framing. Thus it is common. This also means courses sell better in this framing and vulnerable people are easier to manipulate. Economic incentives perpetuate this framing as well. Moloch and marketing.

Communicating to hurt souls that they must go through their own internal and external complexity (relationships, traumas, ambitions, sadness, anger, prides, joys, enlightenments) in a unique and personal way specific to them that no paint by numbers approach can facilitate doesn't sell and doesn't spread. This is however mostly true. Most of which enlightenment doesn't solve. After enlightenment the laundry or in our case the breaching of planetary boundaries, collapse of civilization, and destruction of all life on Earth.

(I love you Leo no shade <3 just trying to make a point with a shared reference) Why has Leo reached "Alien conciousness" yet still talks down to his viewers and struggles to show even moderate levels of Love? Because in spite of his transcendence he has a lack of inclusion or integration. Why are we always talking about stages of development and (even though it is occasionally mentioned) never talk about what it means to include fundamental stages or what integration even looks like?

Love, compassion, and depth are all ripened during inclusion and integration. These are the qualities that touch others hearts. Almost no one is moved to tears by your stories of how its all nothingness and god. They are moved by the way you listen when they need a shoulder. They are moved by an act of kindness when there is nothing to gain. These things are not cultivated in transcendence but rather inclusion (transcendence is necessary not trying to downplay its value) and yet are what a human life is about.

When we strive for "higher" states of consciousness we forego reality. We want a delusion in our head, not the sacred reality that is our face. Who wants to cry for an hour about their childhood, or have depression or depersonalization for 2 years? No one, yet that is what life may call for us. This all can be part of a deepening process if integrated and included into our beings. If I bring Love to my darkest moments, then I can Love anything.

 

7 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

Do not call spirituality a self serving circus of survival. 'Integrating being human' = I want to make spirituality again about my survival.

Thank you for adding your perspective and sharing your time. <3

Spirituality is about reality and what is true. Transcendence and humanity are true at the same time. Relegating humanity to something lower or simply survival misses the point. Ultimately it is a dialectic to be resolved. God and humanity are one. God and survival are one. A human life although deeply moved by survival is so much richer than that. We are tasked with bringing as much of God into our human life as we can. Continually growing that capacity. It means how can we deepen our Love? How can we deepen our Wisdom? How can we deepen our compassion and understanding? How can we heal our trauma? How can we communicate more lovingly in an argument? How can we make sure our sister feels seen when she is sharing something vulnerable? Practical things that require so much inclusion and integration.

 

6 hours ago, Da77en said:

The way I see it is that in order to transcend you must include/integrate. Any kind of separation you create within your consciousness prevents expansion and transcending into higher levels of consciousness. Compartmentalization, dissociation, avoidance, suppression, denial, ignorance, or any kind of separation doesn’t allow for transcendence.

Thank you for sharing! This is a point of view that I sympathize with because it makes so much sense to me. Unfortunately, I don't think it always lives up to its logic. We so often (not always) see those with seemingly enlightened states abuse their power, struggle to show compassion/Love, and be distant.

 

6 hours ago, Da77en said:

So transcendence doesn’t necessarily contradict integration, at least form my perspective.

You are right to point this out. It most certainly does not contradict and I apologize if I notioned in that direction. I believe they have some kind of dialectical relationship. If you have no new experiences, you have nothing to integrate. If you only have new experiences and no integration you are hollow/shallow.
 

7 hours ago, Da77en said:

It’s just important to understand that integration is of your state of being. It’s about integrating your consciousness, which basically means letting go of your fears.

Integration/inclusion is so much deeper and richer than letting go of fear. But most people wouldn't know this since integration and inclusion never gets spoken about.
 

6 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

The criticism of that which i heard.

Is that self help self healing is never ending. You solve one issue and another pops up. And you then become kind of addicted to that healing journey. Like a hammer sees nails everywhere. And you always think you’re not healed enough just yet but maybe someday soon. But that day never really arrives.

Thank you for sharing this PurpleTree! This is certainly a trap in spirituality. To truly see reality you can't be looking elsewhere. But this is not what I am speaking of. Integration and inclusion is more than self help, self healing, or solving issues. It is about deepening your soul. If transcendence brings you up, integration grounds you. two sides of the same coin.

 

2 hours ago, ChrisZoZo said:

Heard of an enlightened master in Australia that tried doing adavanta for years. But then he realised that he really needs to be doing trauma healing. Then people will rapidly obtain it.

Never heard of this! Sounds interesting! However, it does seem like another genuine but misguided reductionism of reality. to reduce spirituality to just trauma healing or to just vipassana or to just zazen is a similar reductionist mistake that scientists make when they reduce reality to just atoms.

The human complex is so varied, personal, and mysterious. To grow takes everything.

 

 

2 hours ago, Rafael Thundercat said:

Integral Life Practice Book. Read apply and see results. Forget the Trancendentalists. You can Trancend existence, is existence all way down,up,left,rigth,ligth,dark,emotions,...keep including add infinitum

Preach my brother! Reality is everything in every direction. Just integrating/including the Love you shared in conversation with your mother is some of the most beautiful spiritual work you can do.

[Carl-Richard]

8 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

Do not call spirituality a self serving circus of survival. 'Integrating being human' = I want to make spirituality again about my survival.

If you focus on transcending without including, you might find that you only wanted to transcend because you didn't include. And you might find that actually transcending is not going your way either, and that you have to include at least something in order to transcend. So in this way, the personal development aspect of spirituality merges with the transpersonal aspect. It's actually the same project. It's usually only taken for granted, or in the case of the Puer Aeternus, neglected:

 

Edited Sunday at 03:43 AM by Carl-Richard

[Da77en]

@Shane Hanlon Your post implies you’re making a pretty big distinction between transcendence and integration. You can’t transcend without integrating, I see the two as being almost synonymous.

You said there is more to integration than just letting go of fear. You were talking about including so I was explaining integration from the context of letting go of the vibration of separation. If there is no illusion of separation then you are all inclusive within yourself and reality as a whole.

If you are talking about integration from the perspective of becoming more in alignment with the energies of your true nature; joy, love, bliss, passion, ecstasy, etc. then yes, of course there’s more to it than just letting go of fear.

You made it seem like you were speaking about integration from the context of it being something separate from other aspects of the spiritual process because you contrasted it with transcendence, god, and enlightenment.

Edited Sunday at 07:30 AM by Da77en

[Shane Hanlon]

4 minutes ago, Da77en said:

You can’t transcend without integrating, I see the two as being almost synonymous

Thank you again for sharing Da77en! I appreciate you engaging with me
You are right to point out their intertwined nature. However, they are not synonymous in the way that hot and warm are synonymous but they are related to each other more in the way that thinking and feeling are interconnected. Or maybe similar to the way (often talked about here) right and left politically are dialectical. It is its' own relationship not exactly like any other so examples can only do so much.

 

8 minutes ago, Da77en said:

You said there is more to integration than just letting go of fear. You were talking about including so I was explaining integration from the context of letting go of the vibration of separation. If there is no illusion of separation then you are all inclusive within yourself.

If you are talking about integration from the perspective of becoming more in alignment with the energies of joy, love, bliss, passion, ecstasy, etc. then yes, of course there’s more to it than just letting go of fear.

Integration and including which I'm using here interchangeably (I probably should've said that lol) go deep and include everything you have mentioned and more. Anything can be integrated/included. Trauma can be. A hug can be. A dog barking can be. Feelings of elation can be. It is all potential to deepen and ground your being.

 

12 minutes ago, Da77en said:

It just seemed that you were looking at integration as being something other than other aspects of the spiritual process that are normally talked about.

I am in the sense that talking to your dad on the phone or playing video games can be integrated/included in a way that entirely deepens and enriches your soul. It is all god and all reality and all beautiful.

56 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

you might find that you only wanted to transcend because you didn't include

This is beautifully put. Deep satisfaction and contentment can be found in integration/including.

 

57 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

the personal development aspect of spirituality merges with the transpersonal aspect. It's actually the same project

Again well said! It is the same project. And this project permeates every single moment of your life in every context. We tend to seperate video games from school from soccer from personal growth from morality from flirting, from spirituality. Even though those are useful distinctions in some contexts, when it comes to spirituality we want to dissolve them all which means everything is spirituality and everything is to be integrated. Everything is to be Loved. You could play video games 12 hours a day and if you were integrating/including well you could be one of the most Loving beings. Results may vary though LOL

[Da77en]

@Shane Hanlon

If we agree that transcendence cannot happen without inclusion/integration I don’t really see why you are being critical of people who talk about transcendence. It’s the same overall process.

It seems like you’re making including into some sort of action. Inclusion is the natural state of life. Separation is an illusion that is artificially created.

If you become fully inclusive you will experience everything as yourself and thus transcend the limitations of the illusory separate self, which is why I see both words as being pretty much synonymous in spiritual contexts.

Usually if something needs to be integrated it’s because there is some sort of fear/negativity that you have attached to it, and thus that’s why I talk about the letting go of fear being the main thing when it comes to integration in that context.

You said that there is more to inclusion/integration than letting go of fear, can you expand on that idea?

 

Edited Sunday at 07:52 AM by Da77en

[Atb210201]

@Shane Hanlon I see what you mean and it's true.

Inclusion is as important in this work as transcendent for sure.

[Shane Hanlon]

6 hours ago, Da77en said:

If we agree that transcendence cannot happen without inclusion/integration I don’t really see why you are being critical of people who talk about transcendence. It’s the same overall process.

I appreciate you following up! thank you!
While I see transcendence and inclusion as interrelated, I don't see them as identical. I do believe you can have transcendence without integration/inclusion. I don't believe you can have healthy transcendence without integration/inclusion.

Think about it like this. Your legs are only useful because of the relationship between them. No leg on their own does much for you. But lets say you're told all the amazing things about the right leg and all of the mysteries and beauties it can provide you. So you spend years focusing on training your right leg. You rarely hear or see the benefits of the left leg so you tend to neglect it. After a couple years your right leg is sculpted like a greek god and has olympic level athleticism. But your left leg is small and weak. Yes it is cool that your right leg is so beautiful but when it comes to being human, all of the benefits of becoming stronger and athletic are lost on you. Because it is only valuable in relationship to the other leg. You can't walk better. You can't swim better. You can't play football better. You may be worse off than if you hadn't done the training at all because of such an asymmetry or out of harmony relationship.

Transcendence and inclusion are like this. They require different exercises for both and most of their value comes from the relationship between them. When we focus on one and not the other, we lose our way.
 

 

6 hours ago, Da77en said:

It seems like you’re making including into some sort of action. Inclusion is the natural state of life. Separation is an illusion that is artificially created.

Seperation and Oneness are both true simultaneously. I think it can start to be confusing to call one a total illusion. It is the relationship between the two that catalyzes creation.

 

6 hours ago, Da77en said:

If you become fully inclusive you will experience everything as yourself and thus transcend the limitations of the illusory separate self, which is why I see both words as being pretty much synonymous in spiritual contexts.

I think you are bringing inclusion and integration into a transcendence world where it doesn't belong. You can include and integrate all normal human experiences like relationships and tending the Earth and flavor and art, meanwhile have no idea of different states of consciousness. You would likely have a loving grounded respect for the world and yourself yet know nothing of transcendence. They do not necessarily lead to each other.

 

6 hours ago, Da77en said:

Usually if something needs to be integrated it’s because there is some sort of fear/negativity that you have attached to it, and thus that’s why I talk about the letting go of fear being the main thing when it comes to integration in that context.

In the same way transcendence is seemingly infinite, so too is inclusion and integration. You can always include/integrate deeper and wider. Fear/negativity is often a symptom of serious schisms, but happiness, self esteem, and Love are symptoms of deep integration and inclusion. You can always deepen it.

 

6 hours ago, Da77en said:

You said that there is more to inclusion/integration than letting go of fear, can you expand on that idea?

Let me know if I'm still not communicating this well

[Shane Hanlon]

16 minutes ago, Atb210201 said:

@Shane Hanlon I see what you mean and it's true.

Inclusion is as important in this work as transcendent for sure.

[puporing]

@Shane Hanlon Interesting.. I experience the opposite, there's not much emphasis on "transcending" from my view.. most people are kind of stuck at where their average peers are at and is very hard to get them out of it..

Your mind is literally afraid of "transcending", it cares much more about "fitting in".

For example I still have not found any spiritual circles that is LGBT friendly, it's all so heteronormative.

Edited 23 hours ago by puporing

[Brittany]

On 11/16/2024 at 0:38 PM, Shane Hanlon said:

Every spiritual circle I have been a part of always promises transcending your problems. How often is the focus on including and integrating your current and past beliefs, feelings, thoughts, actions, pain, love, relationships? It often seems like this is given no value or is the uglier cousin no one cares about in spiritual circles. It's all about realizing enlightenment, or god, or ending your suffering as fast and efficiently as possible - Totally missing the point of a human life and ultimately making for a more confusing, more shallow, and more painful journey.

To include is to Love.

My question, to the "stop spiritual bypassing" community is, how can you even avoid the human experience?

Is that even possible?

Isn't the default state, for most people in the modern world, the human experience?

Isn't it the default state to get pulled into hedonism, watching TV, playing video games, socializing, getting lost in your suffering, getting lost in thoughts, getting lost in stories, getting lost in romantic fantasies, human life, family, work, doom scrolling on social media, etc.?

Isn't the entire society/world pushing us into the human experience, anyways?

Isn't that why monks needed to leave society, to begin with? Because staying in society meant that the human experience would punch you in the face all the time? Usually by your own friends and family pushing you into the maya/duality?

This is why I don't fully understand the "stop spiritual bypassing" community sometimes.

I mean, I get what they are saying, everything needs to be integrated. Yes. Ego integration is important. We need to accept the bad/the ugly/our suffering/what is unwanted/what is rejected. Absolutely. The high-vibe-only stuff is a big problem in spirituality. The things we usually reject need to be pulled in too.

But it's not like most people are getting THAT far removed from their ego/human experience/suffering/relationships................to begin with.

Most people are not THAT successful at transcending the ego, anyways. 

Most people are not THAT successful at avoiding society by being lost in states of nirvana/the void/samadhi/satori, anyways

Most people are not THAT successful at avoiding socializing with friends, family and coworkers.

"Realizing enlightenment or god" is not a common endeavor. This is a small tiny niche. Very few people are actually focusing on this.

Most people offline are focused on their "current and past beliefs, feelings, thoughts, actions, pain, love, relationships", etc.

Enlightenment/God realization is not popular.

I don't get the recent recruitment of people back into the "human experience" or "vulnerable humanity" as if this is not already the default state for most people in modern society.

Most people are not blissed out zombies walking around in states of satori/samadhi, avoiding the problems of the world. Most people are engrossed in their humanity, suffering, relationships and their problems. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Though, I do need to add that there are issues when the Non Duality communities says things like "Rape didn't happen. Everything is God. Everything is love"

And there is also a major issue with Law of Attraction communities saying "Rape was because of your negative thoughts"

They refuse to get down to a human level and deal with trauma properly.

This all needs to be addressed. So, it is very multilayered.

Some people do become Non-Duality zombies, satori/samadhi/nirvana zombies, Law of Attraction zombies, etc. and they all need to snap out of it.

I am not sure if the problem is focusing on transcendence/enlightenment....or the misuse of the teachings.

The other concern is "What if some teachers are meant to teach transcendence/enlightenment? And some other teachers are meant to teach Ego Integration?"

What if some teachers are best at deconstruction, cutting through illusion and ego transcendence?

And some teachers are better at ego integration, human vulnerability and relationships?

Maybe both teachers are needed.

Maybe we just need different classrooms, instead of just having 1 subject.

Maybe part of this is allowing spiritual teachers to have different areas of expertise.

Because otherwise, it's like going up to a Math teacher and asking them "Why aren't you also teaching History? Don't you realize how important History is?"

Edited 14 hours ago by Brittany

[Rafael Thundercat]

Embrace the King