Challenge my motivation to eat a vegan diet

[Something Funny]

Disclaimer: Not sure what the right sub forum is for this post so I decided to post it in the "wisest" one  

I've realised that I am struggling to stay consistent with vegan diet because I was out of touch with why I want to do it and my values. I just got into this groundhog day of trying to eat vegan, failing, trying again, failing again, etc. etc.

And so now I am thinking that one of the best ways to get super clear on why you want to do something is to have it questioned and challenged by other people.

So, here we go:

Essentially, I want to eat a vegan diet because I love animals. I care about them, I feel a lot of empathy and compassion towards them. Seeing them hurt makes me hurt emotionally. I would never hurt an animal with my own hands, so the only reason I am able to eat non vegan food is because it is so disconnected from the process of actually acquiring it (which is why I think that I really need to get in touch with my feelings and "why?").

Also, it's important to note that I do not call myself vegan, because I still want to use some animal products, like beeswax and ethically sourced wool. And because I don't want to put labels on myself in general.

 

[Salvijus]

Vegans kill more animals than meat eaters. 

 

[Something Funny]

@Salvijus This is so not true that it feels like he is intentionally being dishonest, especially with his every turtle comment.

Do you believe what he said? Like honestly?

What do you think farm animals eat? Sunshine and good vibes? They eat those same crops. In fact, I believe it is a commonly known fact in the vegan community (although I don't have any numbers on hand) that most of the crops we grow are grown for animal consumption. This is the reason Amazon rainforest is cut in brazil for example, to grow crops to feed the cows.

Buy refusing to eat animals you also significantly reduce the amount of crops we need to grow, which reduces all this collateral damage a lot. It's much more energy efficient to eat plants yourself then to have an animal eat it -> produce meat -> eat the meat. If I had to guess, probably 90% of energy and resources is wasted on this food transformation.

...

And the hunting argument is just really stupid. Sorry, but it's really stupid.

He must feel really cool and special hunting with bow and arrow. But only because he is not a very bright person. If he was at least a little bit smarter, he would realise that hunting is not sustainable at all. And I don't mean it in the generic "sustainability" term. It is literally physically not sustainable. If everyone who eats factory farmed meat decided to stop and go hunt their food instead, it would have been a catastrophe. We would have run out of things to hunt in a month probably. While also destroying whatever forests, wild places, and ecosystems we have left, completely ruined.

Imagine there is suddenly 8 billion people running around forests and parks, driving cars, camping, shitting, littering, shooting guns, trying to kill whatever they see.

It is ridiculous for a grown man to make this argument. And he somehow seems to be really proud of it, like he is better than others, lol. What he should do is shut up and feel super grateful for being privileged enough to be able to afford going out on regular hunting trips. 99% of people could never even do that, simply for financial reasons.

Edited yesterday at 08:03 AM by Something Funny

[Salvijus]

2 hours ago, Something Funny said:

Do you believe what he said? Like honestly?

I'm convinced that you have to kill at least something to grow crops. So being vegan is still contributing to animal killing. To what extent is the only question. 

Edited yesterday at 09:09 AM by Salvijus

[Something Funny]

Just now, Salvijus said:

I'm convinced that you have to kill at least something to grow crops. So being vegan is still contributing to animal killing.

And? Does that justify an an all or nothing mentality of saying "well, if some animals are dying anyway, I might as well not care and go on a murder spree"?

"Crap, I scratched my knee, gotta cut off the whole leg now"

1 minute ago, Salvijus said:

To what extent is the only question.

To a significantly lesser extent.

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, Something Funny said:

And? Does that justify an an all or nothing mentality of saying "well, if some animals are dying anyway, I might as well not care and go on a murder spree"?

"Crap, I scratched my knee, gotta cut off the whole leg now"

To a significantly lesser extent.

It still makes the vegan argument crumble that killing is unjustifiable because you can't avoid killing. The only question becomes, to what extent killing is appropriate and to what extent it becomes excessive and wasteful? And who said animal meat crosses the line of what's appropriate and inappropriate? 

Edited yesterday at 09:21 AM by Salvijus

[Something Funny]

26 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

It still makes the vegan argument crumble that killing is unjustifiable because you can't avoid killing. The only question becomes, to what extent killing is appropriate and to what extent it becomes excessive and wasteful? And who said animal meat crosses the line of what's appropriate and inappropriate? 

That's not what most vegans argue for. That's a strawman of veganism. Here is a definition of veganism from r/vegan subreddit:

Veganism: A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.

 

26 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

The only question becomes, to what extent killing is appropriate and to what extent it becomes excessive and wasteful?

If you are asking about that extent according to vegan people - read the definition. If you are talking about metaphysics and spirituality, then it doesn't matter and you can genocide the entire planet.

Quote

And who said animal meat crosses the line of what's appropriate and inappropriate? 

Same answer. if you are trying to talk about spirituality, then nothing is inappropriate. If you are talking about our human existence, then many people find it inappropriate and excessive. You don't have to agree with them, like I said, it's not some absolute truth. But I do agree with them. 

Edited yesterday at 09:48 AM by Something Funny

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, Something Funny said:

Veganism: A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose

Living without meat entirely is not practicable either. I agree with reducing cruelty and unnecessarily killing. 

Edited yesterday at 09:53 AM by Salvijus

[Something Funny]

1 minute ago, Salvijus said:

Living without meat entirely is not practicable either.

For everyone, maybe not. LIke Leo said that he can't eat much besides meat due to his illness. But for many people it is totally practicable.

Edited yesterday at 09:54 AM by Something Funny

[Salvijus]

59 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

For everyone, maybe not. LIke Leo said that he can't eat much besides meat due to his illness. But for many people it is totally practicable.

I think we are in agreement then 👍

[Something Funny]

@Salvijus cool

[Buck Edwards]

But you are hurting plants. 

Who says plants don't feel pain when cut, harvested, uprooted etc? 

As long as something is living matter, it has consciousness and will experience pain when it's survival is ended prematurely. 

Even in experiments they have found that plants react to emotional music. This means plants are capable of experiencing things, just not able to articulate it as well as animals do. 

Also man is an omnivore. So man is an agent of survival and continuation in the food chain. Anything that exists, only exists by consuming another, this is the basic rule of survival in the food chain. So as long as you are trying to survive, you're always consuming something to aid your survival, in the process causing pain to the one you're consuming, unless your consuming a non living object like soap or a piece of metal. But if you are consuming a living surviving being, plant or animal, you're still causing pain to that living being because they are alive, they have cells breathing, they are living, you cut them, chop them or end their survival in some form to break them up into nutrients in your stomach to feed your blood. 

So you cause pain anyway, one way or another. This does not necessarily mean that you're the causer of pain, since it's not your fault. You didn't cause it directly. But you are a part of the food chain and survival is your inbuilt agenda so what you do is something you have to do. 

And by that logic, people who eat animals are in the same boat as you, they aren't by any means morally inferior to you. 

 

[Something Funny]

@Buck Edwards sorry, I know you are a nice person, but this is really stupid. Just your run of the mill dumb anti-vegan "gotcha" arguments. I expected more from actualized.org, to be honest.

[Sincerity]

"I love animals" is quite a weak motivation, in my view.

I find that the best reasons to change are for YOURSELF. Don't do it for the animals, do it for you. Meaning: you can do it for love, if that is a persistent core energy in you, but that doesn't equate doing it "for the animals". You can do it for developing YOUR love, the love in YOU. Get what I mean?

"For the animals" is an external motivation. I find the strongest motivations are internal, not depending on external circumstances. You want to build up traits in you that do not depend on anything out there and you can just bask in whenever you want.

Do it for YOUR intent to be loving, good, disciplined, focused, healthy, etc... Whatever YOU care about developing about YOU.

[Something Funny]

@Sincerity I actually argued with a vegan about this. They were saying that veganism is for the animals and not for yourself and I was arguing that everything that you do in life is for yourself.

So, answering your question, I don't see how "I love animals" isn't for myself.

[Sugarcoat]

Why can’t you eat for example grass fed organic meat and eggs etc that was raised in a “humane” way and then killed in a “humane” way? Or you think killing animals in general is bad

[Something Funny]

@Sugarcoat I don't like to use terms good or bad, but yeah, I don't want animals to be killed, period.

[Sincerity]

5 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

So, answering your question, I don't see how "I love animals" isn't for myself.

It is technically "for yourself", but it is less appealing than doing it for literally yourself. There is a difference between "I love animals" and "I love developing my love which is the core of me. I fucking lust after that sweet energy and growth. God, please help me change so that I can be more of myself."

"I love animals" seems harder to focus on. You probably have to visualize animals being killed to motivate yourself or something. Whereas with the focus on your love, you focus on something more positive and deeply personal.

Edited 20 hours ago by Sincerity

[Something Funny]

1 minute ago, Sincerity said:

"I love developing my love which is the core of me. I fucking lust after that sweet energy and growth. God, please help me change so that I can be more of myself."

But I don't feel like that though.

[Sincerity]

2 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

But I don't feel like that though.

Then find what you feel you do want to develop in you. Find personal reasons. Or fight an uphill battle forever with external motivations.

What I said about love was an example.

Edited 20 hours ago by Sincerity