Wokeism is dead - Lex Fridman

[What Am I]

1 hour ago, Nemra said:

What do you mean?

I think it was perfectly fine when we acknowledged that there can be feminine men and masculine women. It was an observation of reality that was clearly evident. But things took a bit of a turn when we started championing the idea that feminine men could in fact be women and masculine women could in fact be men. It seems like an unnecessary blurring of lines that served no real purpose beyond causing social discord. On a whole, what was really gained with the adoption of this concept?

1 hour ago, Nemra said:

What is ambiguous about it?

Sure, creating new members of the species is needed for the continuation of humans, but by that you can't conclude that sexuality is one type.

Similar to the above, I think it's great to acknowledge obvious realities, like hetero and homo sexuality. But something changed in the discourse, and suddenly a far larger portion of the population was convinced (perhaps coercively) that they no longer wanted to follow the standard paradigm of reproduction. If this happened in any other animal species, we'd likely study them with a great curiosity as well as a concern about their eventual endangerment/extinction. But since it's a human social topic, questioning or investigation became naturally stifled for fear of causing offense.

I may not have made the best arguments. I'm not strictly against this kind of stuff, so I honestly don't care enough to overthink it. Someone who has delved deep into gender studies may have a good retort.

I do wonder though, what exactly is progress? How are we defining and measuring it? If you or anyone else has an answer to this one, I'd really like to hear it.

Edited 18 hours ago by What Am I

[Nemra]

36 minutes ago, What Am I said:

But things took a bit of a turn when we started championing the idea that feminine men could in fact be women and masculine women could in fact be men.

I have heard bigoted people say those things, to be honest, and not that they could be but that they are.

But there are similarities between, e.g., feminine men and women. Why would they be labeled in that way?

Of course, they are biologically different.

If you are referring to a man or woman as a gender or gender identity, it depends on how we define them.

36 minutes ago, What Am I said:

But something changed in the discourse, and suddenly a far larger portion of the population was convinced (perhaps coercively) that they no longer wanted to follow the standard paradigm of reproduction.

Well, homosexuality was condemned, and still they are in other places.

Perhaps one should wonder why the standard paradigm only included heterosexuality.

Edited 17 hours ago by Nemra

[PurpleTree]

1 minute ago, Nemra said:

 

Perhaps one should wonder why the standard paradigm only included heterosexuality.

But also how about i don’t care about your sexuality. Zero interest in your sexual preferences.

[Fearey]

I lost any and all respect for Lex a long time ago. He's extremely biased and one-sided, while disguising himself as being a centrist, something he most certainly is not.

Morally bankrupt, right-wing shill.

[Nemra]

Just now, PurpleTree said:

But also how about i don’t care about your sexuality. Zero interest in your sexual preferences.

Well, can you convince others not to be bigoted?

[Dabidoe]

The term woke is so meaningless and outdated.

That said Lex has always been a bit of a fraudster to me - loudly proclaiming peace and love in the hamfisted aspergerian way he does seems like  virtue signaling.

[PurpleTree]

8 minutes ago, Nemra said:

Well, can you convince others not to be bigoted?

It’s impossible.

Also imo it’s ok for people to be bigoted, dumb, woke, sports fans, hate sports, vegan, carnivore etc. as long as you (or homosexuals etc.) have your rights and feel save-ish (as save as others)

[Rafael Thundercat]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Anti-wokeness is dumber than wokeness.

This could be the title of a book. The problem is the index 

[Rafael Thundercat]

8 minutes ago, Rafael Thundercat said:

This could be the title of a book. The problem is the index 

Actually Claude made a good Index

# Introduction: The False Dichotomy

- Defining terms: What exactly is "woke" and "anti-woke"?

- The historical context of social justice movements and their backlash

- Why binary thinking about complex social issues fails us

 

# Chapter 1: The Fundamental Paradox of Anti-Wokeness

- How anti-woke movement often exhibits the same behaviors it criticizes:

  - Identity-based grievance politics

  - Cancel culture (from the right)

  - Moral panics

  - Hypersensitivity to perceived slights

  - Demand for ideological conformity

 

# Chapter 2: The Intellectual Poverty of Pure Reaction

- Why being defined by opposition is inherently limiting

- How anti-woke positioning often lacks constructive alternatives

- The difference between legitimate criticism and reflexive contrarianism

- Examples of anti-woke figures contradicting their own stated principles

 

# Chapter 3: The False Nostalgia Problem

- Examining the mythologized past anti-woke advocates want to return to

- Historical amnesia about previous social justice movements

- Why social change is inevitable and resistance is often futile

- How moral panic about "wokeness" mirrors historical moral panics

 

# Chapter 4: Bad Faith Arguments and Tactical Dishonesty

- Deliberate misrepresentation of progressive positions

- Cherry-picking extreme examples to discredit entire movements

- The "anti-woke" grift: monetizing outrage

- Double standards in critiquing "woke" vs conservative extremism

 

# Chapter 5: The Self-Defeating Nature of Anti-Woke Politics

- How anti-woke backlash often accelerates social change

- The Streisand effect in cultural politics

- Why younger generations are turned off by anti-woke messaging

- The diminishing returns of outrage politics

 

# Chapter 6: The Nuance Problem

- Why both "woke" and "anti-woke" positions can be wrong

- The importance of good-faith criticism of progressive movements

- How binary thinking hurts everyone

- Finding a path forward through genuine dialogue

 

# Chapter 7: A Better Way Forward

- Moving beyond the woke/anti-woke binary

- Principles for constructive social dialogue

- How to critique social justice movements productively

- Building coalitions across ideological lines

 

# Conclusion: Beyond the Culture Wars

- Why we need to escape the outrage cycle

- Practical steps for depolarizing social justice discussions

- The future of social progress beyond current divisions

 

# Appendices

A. Timeline of "Woke" and "Anti-Woke" Evolution

B. Case Studies in Failed Anti-Woke Backlash

C. Glossary of Terms and Concepts

[What Am I]

14 minutes ago, Nemra said:

I have heard bigoted people say those things, to be honest, and not that they could be but that they are.

But there are similarities between, e.g., feminine men and women. Why would they be labeled in that way?

Of course, they are biologically different.

If you are referring to a man or woman as a gender or gender identity, it depends on how we define them.

I have no doubt there's small-minded individuals who hate someone simply for being different, and the label of "bigot" would likely be appropriate. But that label can also be used to shut down any questioning of the validity/value of the proposed behavior. It's a social term which everyone fears being applied to themselves, so many nod their heads and just go along. Though it seems like that attitude is beginning to dissipate.

17 minutes ago, Nemra said:

Well, homosexuality was condemned, and still they are in other places.

Perhaps one should wonder why the standard paradigm only included heterosexuality.

Not to be cheeky, but if I were to ponder why heterosexuality is considered the standard paradigm of reproduction, I'm guessing the answer would soon come to me, lol. But I don't have anything against homosexuality or even any other type of sexuality for which I have no awareness. I just think that we may be playing with fire when the concepts are encouraged to disseminate en masse via social contagion.

I want to reiterate that I'm just observing and noting. I'm not exactly a warrior against these new sexual/gender revolutionary times, and I've basically never voiced my thoughts besides this conversation. Perhaps in the eyes of some, I'm an intolerant monster regardless, but I feel pretty comfortable in my opinions without fear of having performed some manner of immorality.

Is anyone willing to take a shot at my question? I promise, it's possible for me to be swayed by a good argument.

1 hour ago, What Am I said:

I do wonder though, what exactly is progress? How are we defining and measuring it? If you or anyone else has an answer to this one, I'd really like to hear it.

 

[Nemra]

18 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Also imo it’s ok for people to be bigoted, dumb, woke, sports fans, hate sports, vegan, carnivore etc. as long as you (or homosexuals etc.) have your rights and feel save-ish (as save as others)

Me too.

[PurpleTree]

24 minutes ago, Nemra said:

Me too.

That’s cool. 
Also i‘ve often pushed back against peoples bigotry in my surroundings. And I probably have some bigotry myself. If i see a bigot attacking someone i will usually push back. But i don’t care if people are bigots at home and such.

 

[Jodistrict]

Wokeism was a bad idea and unhealthy for society.  It divides people into identity groups, using a perpetrator/victim mythology.  It deflects the public from the problems of real wealth inequality which is why I don’t refer to it as “left” or “progressive”.  It is a massive deflection to worry about pronouns while the issue of equity capital buying up all the houses and farm land is virtually ignored.   Notice how easily wokeism has been embraced by the large corporations and the establishment elites.  While people are fighting each other they aren’t questioning the status quo and threatening the power structure.    

[Cireeric]

I found this to be a quite reasonable critique of the errors of the democratic party and wokeism, without endorsing Trumpism.

[Schizophonia]

If you think complaining is pitiful and dangerous in general, you will project it into others and see "hysterical wokes".

Edited 15 hours ago by Schizophonia

[PurpleTree]

3 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

If you think complaining is pitiful and dangerous in general, you will project it into others and see "hysterical wokes".

Personally i just don’t really like to be told what to do and what to like by others etc.

[Schizophonia]

1 minute ago, PurpleTree said:

Personally i just don’t really like to be told what to do and what to like by others etc.

That's not what happens in your life.

You have a tendency towards hypertrophied ego, this is neither good nor bad but because it is in denial for some reason it becomes projected and observable in the maya in the form of these people, even if the imagery is different than what you usually identify with the underlying energy is the same.

Your pp is a religious and military leader.

Say this sentence out loud : "just don’t really like to be told what to do and what to like by others" with a typical SJW voice.

Lol, do you see what i mean.

 

They too are mirrored, they are indeed mental fascists, we agree.

I'm just trying to see this in a non-dual way.

[PurpleTree]

8 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

That's not what happens in your life.

You have a tendency towards hypertrophied ego, this is neither good nor bad but because it is in denial for some reason it becomes projected and observable in the maya in the form of these people, even if the imagery is different than what you usually identify with the underlying energy is the same.

Your pp is a religious and military leader.

Say this sentence out loud : "just don’t really like to be told what to do and what to like by others" with a typical SJW voice.

Lol, do you see what i mean.

 

They too are mirrored, they are indeed mental fascists, we agree.

I'm just trying to see this in a non-dual way.

I don’t think there really is a nondual way of looking at these things. It’s basically to drop the self and others and then everything and all opinions mostly collapse into nothingness or unknowableness.

[MAHAVATAR_-_BABAJI]

23 hours ago, zazen said:

The cultural zeitgeist has changed. Peak woke has passed. The election gave permission for people to de-wokify. The vibe shift is real.

🤣🤣🤣 amazes me how people follow trends. Their entire life is a giant trend follow.

[abundance]

Can he even give a proper definition of wokeness?